| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Strawb |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 09:31:45
Hello everyone,
this is my first post, as I've just received my first royal via a friend who works at a vets and was given the snake by the previous owners.
It is a very nervous creature as the previous owners apparently had no time for it and never took it out of it's vivarium. 
According to the paperwork it hatched on 15 April 2008. This is where I have a bit of a problem.
The snake is about 80cm long and weighs 484g. Now the chart of weight to age ratios that someone (sorry, forgotten the name) kindly posted on this forum says that a snake of this weight should be a maximum of about 18 months. The snake is healthy and has been eating well.
Could someone please let me know what the average size and weight of a 3 year old royal should be? And if the snake is really younger than the certificate says, then how old would you say it was?
Unfortunately even the sex of it is a mystery.
Thanks for any replies and I'm finding the forum really useful.
All the best,
Dave
P.s. Could anyone recommend a good book on royal python biology, care and breeding etc? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| n/a |
Posted - 17/02/2011 : 20:38:30
quote:
Originally posted by Strawb
Hi Lilith,
I took Tia out for her nightly exercise and she didn't ball up for the first time. She's still very nervous as you'd imagine, but after a long hard stare at my fizz (and nothing can stare like a snake) she seemed to decide that the ugly mug in front of her wasn't any threat and had a quick wander around. 
Don't worry about hijacking the thread. I was wondering if to start a second one on peoples views on captive farming. The more people talk about it and raise awareness the better.
Like you I've also found this forum invaluable. I'm going to look into the `Complete Python`. Thanks for the reading tips everyone. Time to order and start reading.
Bless her, I'm glad she's settling.
We've just been discussing the 'Complete Ball Python' over on the general section - 'A Blessing' thread - looks as if there are cheaper places to get it than Amazon, or as if there is now a paperback available (mine's a hardback.) I couldn't get much info on the net at all or even ascertain if it was in print in the UK. Probably not - probably an American import.
A thread on captive farming could be a good idea. I wish I'd been more aware of this trade - although I don't regret buying Shahi, bless him.
All the best with Tia. |
| Strawb |
Posted - 17/02/2011 : 20:29:37
Hi Lilith,
I took Tia out for her nightly exercise and she didn't ball up for the first time. She's still very nervous as you'd imagine, but after a long hard stare at my fizz (and nothing can stare like a snake) she seemed to decide that the ugly mug in front of her wasn't any threat and had a quick wander around.
Don't worry about hijacking the thread. I was wondering if to start a second one on peoples views on captive farming. The more people talk about it and raise awareness the better.
Like you I've also found this forum invaluable. I'm going to look into the `Complete Python`. Thanks for the reading tips everyone. Time to order and start reading.
|
| n/a |
Posted - 17/02/2011 : 10:32:35
Hi, Strawb, sorry we hijacked your thread there somewhat, although it'll have been relevant to Tia's history.
How is she settling in? Bet she's becoming laid back already?
I can recommend the 'Complete Ball Python' by the way - got my copy in the post today and it's mint - doesn't look as if anyone's read it. (Won't stay that way for long lol.) Only had a quick flick through but what I have read is excellent. Price is daunting - I suppose it's classed as a specialist publication, but definitely worth it.
Good luck with Tia - let us know how you get on. |
| Blackecho |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 19:02:30
I agree that there is far too much of it overall. |
| n/a |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 16:49:16
quote:
Originally posted by Blackecho
Remember that fresh blood lines (which can only be obtained from the wild) will make the species stronger rather than several generations of in-breeding, so some amount is a positive.
True enough, but what about all the poor little devils that don't survive, or go to homes where the owners are too inexperienced/indifferent/badly advised by the shop to care for them properly?
Shahi and I faced a pretty awful dilemma when he first arrived - I was too new and shy on the forum to confess - we came through it through commonsense (both his and mine lol) and reading on this forum, but things could have so easily gone wrong.
Thank goodness they didn't. |
| Blackecho |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 16:16:01
Remember that fresh blood lines (which can only be obtained from the wild) will make the species stronger rather than several generations of in-breeding, so some amount is a positive. |
| n/a |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 15:11:39
quote:
Originally posted by Snecklifter
Most of the royal pythons in pet shops in the UK (and other parts of the world) are what is known as cf (captive farmed)
[/quote]
Is that true? I know that in the USA, CF is the most common method of producing snakes, or even wild caught and imported. But in the UK I'd heard this was much less common and that most reputable pet shope source captive bred snakes from reputable breeders.
[/quote]
..................................................oops think the quote print thingy didn't work.
'Reputable' being the operative word, I'm afraid. There are some marvellous shops out there who do sell captive bred, but from what I gathered when researching into cf, the majority of normal hatchlings in the shops (obviously no morph will be cf!) are cf, and there are plenty of shops who will sell them.
By the way, I'm not saying these are substandard snakes - Shahi's weight was commented on by BE as being a record, and although Saada's small, she's a little smasher.
But I wish the cf trade didn't exist, all the same. True, true, it may provide an income for poorly waged people in Africa, as well as a fat profit for businessmen, but what really does bother me is the kind of commercial process these little snakes have survived; if they do survive:- shipped abroad, then put into shop display conditions, then bought by possibly very inexperienced people (I sure was, even though I'd got corns already. I just thank my lucky stars, and Shahi's, that I'd discovered this forum!) |
| Snecklifter |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 14:25:51
[/quote]
Most of the royal pythons in pet shops in the UK (and other parts of the world) are what is known as cf (captive farmed)
[/quote]
Is that true? I know that in the USA, CF is the most common method of producing snakes, or even wild caught and imported. But in the UK I'd heard this was much less common and that most reputable pet shope source captive bred snakes from reputable breeders. |
| n/a |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 10:52:20
quote:
Originally posted by Strawb
Thanks again for the information.
The snake was fed every 2 weeks from what I've learned, although if the previous owners are telling the truth is another matter. If they didn't have time to handle their snake I can't imagine feeding was that regular.
Regarding the trade in royals. Profit always comes first for most of the large scale suppliers, with welfare of the animals pretty low down on the priority list. Unfortunately I'd imagine most people looking for their first royal would just go to their nearest pet shop and pick one up, no questions regarding history.
I don't know if my royal is female or male, but I've decided to call her Tia. The advice given to me by the vet was that I always had to hold her head tightly or else she'd bite. The vet had been bitten twice.  She seemed to be a bit rough for my liking. I haven't held Tia's head tight, just held her in my hands and she's never felt inclined to bite. TLC is what is required here.
Any advice about Royal books?
Oh no! Poor Tia!
I remember learning as a little girl watching tv wildlife programmes, that a way to handle a wild and possibly dangerous snake was to grip it behind the head (easier said than done, I imagine) and hold its tail with your other hand. I think these days a hook would be used.
To do that to a royal, who is notoriously head-shy ...I'm not surprised the vet got bitten.
I realise of course that if someone was inexperienced with reptiles this would be seen as a sensible safety precaution, but poor Tia. Never mind, she'll regain her confidence with you, and they're not all head-shy. Somehow I realised my Surahi seems to like - well, tolerate, because she doesn't move away, gentle stroking of her throat. (Sentimental of me I know but if I ever did have to handle her near her head, at least she's accustomed to it.)
I feel dead embarrassed that I didn't realise fully about captive farming - I'd been on RFUK for a few months, after all, and read loads on this forum but somehow I never came across clear info about cf until after Shahi was purchased. Mind you, he was in the country by then, glad I've got him too.
Amazon have three used copies of Kevin McCurley's 'Complete Ball Python', starting at £48.
Ah, sorry, amendment ... I got tempted. (For the sake of my snakes, you understand ...)
But the good news is that they still have two, starting at £56. I believe the price of a brand new book is around £100.
Another amendment - the brand new book isn't even available in the UK as far as I can see (just making sure I had my facts straight.) Don't know how available it is in the rest of Europe. You can get it from NERD for $65 inc shipping though - it's said to work out far cheaper than English prices too. I'm satisfied with amazon though - can't get my head round dollars and paypal. |
| Blackecho |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 07:41:10
Or this, but also expensive: http://www.vpi.com/pythons_of_the_world_vol_2_0 |
| Blackecho |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 07:39:58
The Complete Ball Python by Kevin McCurley is great, but can be expensive, should be able to find it on Amazon or some similar site. |
| Strawb |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 07:35:17
Thanks again for the information.
The snake was fed every 2 weeks from what I've learned, although if the previous owners are telling the truth is another matter. If they didn't have time to handle their snake I can't imagine feeding was that regular.
Regarding the trade in royals. Profit always comes first for most of the large scale suppliers, with welfare of the animals pretty low down on the priority list. Unfortunately I'd imagine most people looking for their first royal would just go to their nearest pet shop and pick one up, no questions regarding history.
I don't know if my royal is female or male, but I've decided to call her Tia. The advice given to me by the vet was that I always had to hold her head tightly or else she'd bite. The vet had been bitten twice. She seemed to be a bit rough for my liking. I haven't held Tia's head tight, just held her in my hands and she's never felt inclined to bite. TLC is what is required here.
Any advice about Royal books? |
| Blackecho |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 19:37:34
Some people feel that a smaller male will breed more voraciously than a larger male. |
| n/a |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 19:24:01
Why is it that feeding for males is curtailed? I've never heard of this before.
I know that some shops feed snakes on a 'maintenance' diet - also it's more convenient to feed weekly. Shahi, who should have been fed every 5 days, was being offered food every week (unclear if he was eating - another story, but he's made up for it since, the lump!) Saada, on the advice of the local pet supermarket, was being fed every fortnight (no detriment meant to her owner, who thought he was doing the right thing by taking their advice.)
Right at the moment the little gits are still on the winter fast but they didn't half stuff themselves beforehand lol. |
| Lancelot |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 19:14:07
I sympathise with your frustration with age and past history. I too have an unclear history but the best we can for the snake now is just concentrate on the here and now and to make sure the keep healthy from here, onwards.
I'm in the process of try to get my facts straight before i sign up for the pet insurance which i found messy last time round. |
| Blackecho |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 19:04:18
quote:
Originally posted by Royalbob
Also some breeders or shops really slow the feeding down on males once they reach 500-600g
True enough. |
| Royalbob |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 18:45:14
Also some breeders or shops really slow the feeding down on males once they reach 500-600g |
| n/a |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 18:41:21
quote:
Originally posted by Strawb
Thanks for the replies.
Black echo: It was the weight on your chart at 36 months that made me question the certificate in the first place.
I've also found out that it was supposedly hatched in Africa and then flown here to Germany. If this is the case, I certainly won't be buying anything from the pet shop that sold the snake in the first place. The more I hear of this poor snake's past the more angry I get
Still, it's going to get a nice bath and a clean up tonight.
Most of the royal pythons in pet shops in the UK (and other parts of the world) are what is known as cf (captive farmed) which means the eggs are harvested in West Africa (usually Ghana) and the hatchlings flown abroad to be reared for the pet trade. There are a lot of conflicting reports and views on this practice. At best, it's said that a percentage of hatchlings must be kept and released back into the wild to keep up the indigenous royal population; at worst there are reports of cramped and disgusting conditions for the hatchlings. I confess I didn't realise all this until after I'd bought Shahi - like you, I thought, well, he's here now and I can give him a good home, and like you I was pretty horrified about this trade. Saada too is cf - she was for sale because her owner was moving into accommodation where she wasn't allowed, and when I saw her I just fell in love. She was a snake who needed a new home, although it was clear that her owner was very sorry to part with her.
Yes, the cf trade bothers me too. All the best with your snake, by the way - sounds as if she/he has fallen into good hands. |
| hodgie |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 18:23:08
I wouldn`t worry to much, my pastel male was only 600g and 3 years old when i got him (from a breeder with full feeding records) I`ve had him over a year and a half and he`s just touching 1000g. Some will groww faster than others, maybe he was only given the odd mouse so didnt get the chance to put on much weight. Get him in a nice setup and get him feeding and go from there. |
| Strawb |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 18:02:49
Thanks for the replies.
Black echo: It was the weight on your chart at 36 months that made me question the certificate in the first place.
I've also found out that it was supposedly hatched in Africa and then flown here to Germany. If this is the case, I certainly won't be buying anything from the pet shop that sold the snake in the first place. The more I hear of this poor snake's past the more angry I get
Still, it's going to get a nice bath and a clean up tonight.
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