| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lotabob |
Posted - 30/04/2011 : 17:32:54
This is my Royal Python vivarium. I have carefully and methodically chosen the best spot for each probe. I hope this helps.
The hot spot thermometer & thermostat probe is within the hot spot that is cast below the heat bulb, its easier to find with a light emitting bulb because as the name suggests it will cast a spot of light that appears more intense in a circular spot than anywhere else. My probe is not directly in the middle of this spot but the difference in temperature between the centre (which is also closer to the bulb due to the elevation of the hide) and the rest of the hot spot was less than half a degree centigrade so I placed it where it could be secured by a hide.
The hygrometer probe is at snake height and shielded by foliage from any of the heat emitted by the heat bulb as it will effect the reading.
The ambient probe could be anywhere not in direct sight of the bulb but tucked away at the back behind the foliage keeps things neat and tidy.
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| 13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Snecklifter |
Posted - 05/05/2011 : 15:50:25
There's more than one way to skin a cat...
I would not have the thermostat at the cold end though. My thermostat is at the hot end, in direct line of sight with the heat source, a hot end thermometer just above substrate level gives an idication of thermostat performance at the hot end, as well as helping to ensure that the hot end is not over temperature. The hygrometer and cold end thermometer are both at the cold end of my vivarium. |
| antcherry88 |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 21:24:23
At least it shows we are both aware of how our set-ups work and the risks associated with each.
I would never have expected to change your mind but I hope other people reading may take some time to understand how their own set-ups are working.
You're initial post was great by the way. Clearly shows where everything is and that's what's needed.
Nice chatting to you! |
| Lotabob |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 20:35:47
Royals dont have an ideal internal temperature just a safe range. An ideal temp would be brilliant and solve a lot of issues.
We will have to agree to disagree. I don't believe your position has adequate control over the heat source. And you don't believe my position has enough control over the ambient air temperature. You won't convince me otherwise and I won't convince you otherwise. The important thing is that the needs of the snake are met, if they are all good and well, I will say be careful of the hotspot temperatures when the weather is cold and I will monitor temperatures during heat waves. |
| antcherry88 |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 20:05:21
But with the probe directly under the heat source it's not a safety device - only a control device. I'm not doubting it's ability to control the hot end but where's the safety?
Essentially all you are controlling is a maximum temperature, but that maximum temperature is too hot for the snake to survive in over a long period. I don't know what the ideal internal temperature of a royal is but it's not 32. So in the safety aspect we already discussed this set-up will equilibrate somewhere near to 32 on a hot day. Which is not safe.
Im in no doubt your set-up will work in terms of temperature control, and probably 90% of the time. But if the worst did happen and we had a heatwave or something where's the safety feature? You're not utilising the stat for control AND safety as it was intended.
I'm only saying this because people will see this post "carefully and methodically chosen", particularly those new to the hobby, and think it's an ideal use of a thermostat - in reality it's not and people should be aware of what could happen and the advantages/disadvantages of probe positioning.
You probe positions are "carefully and methodically chosen" for the best hot end temperature control but there's no play off between 'perfect hot end control' and 'safety' built in to the set-up.
At the end of the day safety should always be paramount. Perfect temperature control isn't essential with reptiles as they have the ability to do this themselves. But they need the option of hotter AND cooler areas. With cooler areas being the most important as reptiles suffer greater from being too hot than being too cold. |
| Lotabob |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 19:10:53
The temperature of the bulb is irrelevant to the positioning of the probe and at no point was it a factor.
If you are happy to run your vivarium without direct control of your bulb thats entirely your decision, stats are both safety and control devices. I think I remember the instruction sheet that came with the dimming stat and I think I remember it saying about mid range accuracy but I've never had a problem through the whole range as I use them for other snakes with different requirements. I think I also remember it saying something about common sense for placement and the diagram had something about direct line of sight, I took this point as the most important thing and along with discussions on here decided the best position for my probe would be under the bulb, I also tested this with another setup and found the best overall control was by having the probe under the heat source.
If by way of comparison you'd like to take daily high/low reading from your vivarium over say a week and then we can comapare accuracy between the 2 setups I'd be happy to see how that pans out. |
| antcherry88 |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 18:02:02
"Stats are there mainly to prevent overheating, overheating will happen in the hot spot long before it happens to ambient air temperature"
Stats are there to prevent overheating of the snake not the bulb. So on a cold day it doesn't matter if the bulb gets too hot the snake will move away from it. As we discussed, with a correctly engineered set-up taking into account the bulb wattage/guards it's never going to get dangerously hot to burn on contact or cook the snake through radiated heat - so why does this matter?
Another thing to consider is thermostats are most accurate in their mid temperature range. When controlling at 32 your pushing close to the highest tolerance. Stats aren't designed to control basking spots which is why they range from 18 to 32oC - fitting in with the "cool end" to "middle viv" temperatures of pretty much all reptiles - meaning probes should be placed in the "cool end" or "middle viv" positions.
Whilst there are downsides to placing the probe in the cool end, it makes much more sense under "normal conditions". With reference to setting up a thermal gradients only, stats are safety devices rather than control devices.
With reference to your temperature ruler analogy: there is indeed much more play at the cool end and much less play at the hot end. Meaning a cold snake isn't in much danger - but a hot one is. Cold snakes just slow down - hot ones die.
That's why (in my opinion) it's essential to ensure there's always a cool end on a hot day. Even if the bulb does dim and you lose the gradient. It's a colder overall temperature so I know my snake won't be in danger. Bearing in mind because it's hot outside the snakes not going to freeze! :-)
On the other hand, in your set-up, on a hot day you run the risk of losing your gradient but to the other extreme, where it's overall hotter. Meaning the snake is at an increased risk as it can't cool down.
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| Lotabob |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 16:56:31
Ventilation is a standard fixing in vivariums and very obvious and rarely needs to be adjusted, the thread is to demonstrate the best position for probes as they are black and not easy to see unless pointed out.
Ventilation will prevent the ambient temperature from becoming too hot in all but the most extreme of hot days. Ventilation will not prevent the hot spot getting hotter than it should that is why its controlled by the thermostat. I could install a fan driven ventilation system and it would lower the ambient but have very little effect on the hot spot. The hot spot is the radiated heat warming up the surface its pointing at, this radiated heat has practically no effect on the air temperature until it hits the surface, warms it up and then the heat is lost from that surface to the air, also the contact heat of the bulb itself is what mainly heats the ambient air temperature.
The simple fact of the matter is hot days are rare and will have very little effect on either of the setups unless the external temperature passes ambient. In which case both setups will need manually cooled. Cold days are more common and in the cold my setup keeps its hot spot and the ambient drops cooler, in your set up the ambient drops and your bulb goes to full power, very likely to be hotter than a normal hot spot with a chance of it been too hot. Stats are there mainly to prevent overheating, overheating will happen in the hot spot long before it happens to ambient air temperature with exception of maybe 2 or 3 extreme circumstances that I can think of.
(ERM OK, Think of the heat tolerance of a snake as a 30cm ruler, 0cm is the coldest they can go 30cm is the hottest they can go, the hot spot is at the 25cm mark and the ambient at around the 15cm mark, there is more play in the cold end of the scale than the hot end. Why control the bit with the least play by monitoring something down the other end of that scale). |
| antcherry88 |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 16:19:36
I see what your saying. The way I always look at it is that I never worry too much about obtaining ideal or constant hot and cold temperatures I just worry about achieving a sensible thermal gradient. After all, snakes thermoregulate themselves so we don't need to do their job for them.
In summary, like you say, the only real way to protect against extremes in external temperatures is by using a climate controlled room. With the climate as it is in england I suppose it's rare its going to get that hot that you lose your cool end (with probe in hot end) or hot end (with probe in cool end) so it's not neccessary.
I would say however that ventilation is important and should maybe be mentioned a bit more as its the obvious way to protect against overheating regardless of probe positioning. And if you allow adequate ventilation the ambient temperature does track seasonal variations in external temperature to a certain degree. |
| Lotabob |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 15:29:04
I know your not been argumentative your making a valid point. I agree you should have a wattage bulb that is of a suitable power for the enclosure, I found that 75 Watts wasn't quiet enough power and the next bulb up was 100 Watts and that has just a little bit extra in the bag. A guard is essential not only because a bulb even running at half power will still have the contact heat to burn but bulbs are glass and royals are hefty and strong and would easily crush a bulb. All bulbs of course are designed to run at 100% but the radiative heat they emit needs to be kept in check not just the contact heat. A Royal python requires a warm ambient temperature and a basking spot that is not too hot. With my bulb running a hot spot of 32oC the ambient is 25.5oC with an acceptable and safe variable of a degree either way for hot and cold days. I suppose logically the stat checking ambient and set to 25.5oC would hold the bulb at 32oC but the external temperature is not a constant and external temperature changes alter the ambient temperature.
Using my vivarium as a model the important thing to consider is ambient is variable, it is directly effected by external temperatures, (I have a window open, am I drying clothes on the radiators etc) where as the bulb is a constant it will heat to 32oC regardless of external influence. Trying to stabilise the acceptable variable will lead to destabilising the constant.
Using your model to have a stable ambient on a cold day your bulb would have to either be kicking out a fierce amount of radiated heat or it just wouldn't be able to keep up. On a hot day your ambient would be influenced by the external heat so your bulb would be dimming, removing a basking spot even though its unlikely to ever get that hot.
EDIT: Forgot to say that if you had a climate controlled room that the royals enclosure was in then the external vriation becomes non applicable and both models become effective though as a safety measure I'd still put the probe in the hot spot. |
| antcherry88 |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 14:42:34
I see your point of view as well. I'm not being argumentative by the way just intrigued as to how different people think about their set-up.
I disagree with what you say about a bulb at 100% getting far hotter than is safe. Surely they are designed to run at 100% and you should choose a bulb of the right wattage as well as have a guard with a large enough separation between the bulb and cage to ensure its always safe. Even if the worst was to happen and the stat failed.
I guess there are pros and cons in placing the probe at either the hot or the cold end. And come to think of it, it's probably why all the stat manufacturers advise putting it in the middle! Even though we all ignore their advice! :-) |
| Lotabob |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 13:37:30
A thermostat is a control for the heat source. If its not monitoring the heat from the heat source it may as well not be there at all. The ambient temperature is controlled by the use of ventilation and to an extent the external environment.
I do understand the theory behind what your saying but its far more important to ensure the hot spot doesn't exceed safe limits than it is to plan for a heat wave in the UK.
If the external environment is cold =
*the probe in the hot spot* controls the hot end temp and ambient falls a bit colder.
*the probe in the cool end* means the ambient temp drops but the bulb cranks up to 100% far hotter than is safe.
If the external environment is hot =
*The probe in the hot spot* controls the hot end temp and prevents ambient exceeding safe limits at the same time, the snake may lose a 'cool' spot but its still within safe limits for the snake. If external influence exceeds the safe limits thats one mighty unusual hot day and there is always the water bowl as a last resort.
*The probe in the cool end* holds the ambient temp until the external influence exceeds the ambient then the stat turns down the bulb and you lose the thermal gradient. |
| antcherry88 |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 12:36:23
Can I ask why you choose to place the probe for the thermostat directly under the hot spot?
I always thought thermostats should never be used to control the “hot end” (hence why they only go to 35oC) but are more a safety feature to ensure there is always a cool end for the snake to retreat to should it get too hot; which is just as important as a hot end to digest food.
I always think it’s better to put the probe at the cool end to control the minimum temperature, therefore there’s always a safe “cool end” for the snake to retreat to. The hot end temperature does not have to be exact and can be approximately controlled with a balance of the correct type/wattage of heat bulb combined with adequate ventilation. If the hot end gets a bit too hot, it doesn't matter, as the snake just moves to a cooler place; which will always be there as the thermostat/adequate ventilation makes sure of it.
With the set-up as you have it (probe controlling the hot end) there’s no guarantee there will be a cool end! On a hot day that whole viv could easily heat up and reach the temperature set at the thermostat at the hot end. Then you've lost the thermal gradient completely and the snake has no choice what temperature it's at! It's either hot, or hot! You see what I mean?
You could argue it will sit in it's water bowl to cool off but that's just added stress and not good for the snake in the long run.
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| sandi |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 15:29:09
Thats brilliant lotabob, really concise information, would be good for anyone who is unsure of how to set up the stats and probes.
Could this become a sticky? or be added to the info page? |
