| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jonnyc1988 |
Posted - 29/10/2013 : 18:00:21
I have taken the plunge and paid for 2 dwarf retics, 1 male 1 female both 66% Het Toffee T+. I had some confusion over the 66%. I thought it meant there was a 66% chance of them being Het, but the lad at the shop (who is usually always right) guaranteed they are 100% Het for Toffee, and that the 66% improves the odds upon the amount of Toffees they will produce. Im still skeptical, but I do plan on breeding them in the future so time will tell.
I will be picking them up at the weekend so I will make sure I stick some pics up then.  |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| badwool |
Posted - 13/11/2013 : 12:25:00
I figured the guy in the shop could have it wrong is all. |
| anatess |
Posted - 02/11/2013 : 02:31:21
quote:
Originally posted by carlb1981
I wasn't sure what percentages dwarf a retic could be and in your first reply you didn't say 66% wasn't possible so it sounded as though you were saying having xx% dwarf wasn't possible
Oh! Ok, I understand you now. Yeah, I just assumed y'all know that 66% is specific to het x het pairing of simple recessive genes. Sorry for the confusion. |
| carlb1981 |
Posted - 01/11/2013 : 15:33:29
I wasn't sure what percentages dwarf a retic could be and in your first reply you didn't say 66% wasn't possible so it sounded as though you were saying having xx% dwarf wasn't possible |
| anatess |
Posted - 01/11/2013 : 14:37:00
quote:
Originally posted by carlb1981
I know it doesn't equate to chances per egg i was just saying you can get retics that are %dwarf like you've just stated, i wasn't sure on what percentages they can be i just knew they could be percentage dwarf which is why he said 66% dwarf 100% het for toffee
I'm confused... I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here.
My first response to him says, It's not possible because dwarf is not a recessive trait, it is a dominant trait hence there's no 66% classification. Because 66% is specific to the het x het pairing not a dominant pairing. But then you replied to that saying 66% dwarf 100% het toffee is correct... so you got me confused, so I explained why there's no 66% dwarf.
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| carlb1981 |
Posted - 01/11/2013 : 07:07:21
I know it doesn't equate to chances per egg i was just saying you can get retics that are %dwarf like you've just stated, i wasn't sure on what percentages they can be i just knew they could be percentage dwarf which is why he said 66% dwarf 100% het for toffee |
| anatess |
Posted - 01/11/2013 : 03:52:12
quote:
Originally posted by carlb1981
What badwool said is right as retics that have had dwarf lines bred to mainlands are named as %dwarf depending on the parentage,
johnny that's awesome they are stunning snakes I've seen the visual in the other store i wasn't aware they were bred by a worker i thought they'd came from donny
No, it is not right because you can't get a 66% dwarf as it is not a recessive trait. It is a classification.
Okay, follow me here.
A normal retic bred to a dwarf retic will produce ALL 50 % dwarf. That is, it is bigger than a dwarf but smaller than a regular. Because a dwarf can't produce a full retic. Now, the exact size of the offspring varies greatly between the dwarf and a full retic.
Now, say you breed a 50% dwarf to a full retic, you'll get a 75% retic. That is, it is bigger than a 50% dwarf and smaller than a full retic. Now, there are 50% dwarfs that are bigger than 75% dwarfs... And that's simply because the size range of a 50% is anywhere between dwarf and full.
Now, say you breed a 50% dwarf to a 75% dwarf... You'll get a 62.5% dwarf, that is, it is bigger than a 50% but smaller than a 75%. You don't get 66%.
Now, note that the percentage dwarf does not equate to any chances per egg like color morphs do nor does it equate to exact feet or inches or centimeters.
Hope this helps. |
| jonnyc1988 |
Posted - 31/10/2013 : 19:19:49
I did ask that, I know most dwarf morphs are bred in from mainlands. |
| carlb1981 |
Posted - 31/10/2013 : 19:18:55
What badwool said is right as retics that have had dwarf lines bred to mainlands are named as %dwarf depending on the parentage,
johnny that's awesome they are stunning snakes I've seen the visual in the other store i wasn't aware they were bred by a worker i thought they'd came from donny |
| anatess |
Posted - 31/10/2013 : 17:47:39
quote:
Originally posted by badwool
sure he isnt getting confused and he means they are 66% dwarf 100% het toffee?
Not possible. Dwarf is not a recessive trait nor a co-dom trait. Dwarf is a dominant trait that is part of the animal's genetics. Basically, retics from a specific locale are smaller (like the smallest retics can be found in Kayuadi island). These smaller retics are studied to see if it makes more sense to create a subspecies for them especially since they are specific to a geographic location. |
| badwool |
Posted - 31/10/2013 : 16:40:25
sure he isnt getting confused and he means they are 66% dwarf 100% het toffee? |
| richard v |
Posted - 31/10/2013 : 09:15:24
@ Antatess that is an amazing explanation |
| jonnyc1988 |
Posted - 30/10/2013 : 17:23:27
Yeah, I will be asking for a bit more info on this when I pick them up. They are just hatchlings so havent bred before. i know they are from a clutch with visuals as there is a visual for sale as well. I think one of the people who works at the shop has bred the parents so shouldnt be hard to find out if one of the parents is a visual or not. Thanks for the help. I used to be a genetics master but im a bit rusty now. Its what my degree was in, but spent too long working in a chemistry lab. Snakes are the only thing that have kept me interested in genetics. |
| anatess |
Posted - 30/10/2013 : 16:37:47
quote:
Originally posted by jonnyc1988
THis is exactly what I thought the 66% meant, but the shop keeper was certain it was otherwise. Im sure he was trying to say the 66% means they will produce more Toffees which didnt make sense. They are either Heterozygous or not!?!? I got the pair for £350 and they are little stunners as it is, so I dont feel like I over paid.
It might be to your benefit (and the shopkeeper's) to clarify this with him. I'm assuming that these guys have never been bred before and wouldn't have produced a visual toffee.
If he knows who produced the retics, ask the breeder who the parents are. In the States a lot of the 66% hets come with certificate that shows who bred the snake and a description of the parents (the accuracy of the paper is determined by the reputation of the breeder). If one of the parents is a visual then you got a 100% het. If not, then you can print my explanation above and give it to the shopkeeper to hopefully give him information on the 66% nomenclature for future reference. The hobby benefits from good information being passed to hobbyists. Win! |
| jonnyc1988 |
Posted - 30/10/2013 : 15:40:37
THis is exactly what I thought the 66% meant, but the shop keeper was certain it was otherwise. Im sure he was trying to say the 66% means they will produce more Toffees which didnt make sense. They are either Heterozygous or not!?!? I got the pair for £350 and they are little stunners as it is, so I dont feel like I over paid. |
| anatess |
Posted - 30/10/2013 : 12:48:05
I'd love to see pictures too. It's a bugger that its illegal to have them here in Florida. 
But I'm sorry, your breeder is wrong about this being a guaranteed recessive carrier. If it was, it will not be called 66% het. It will be called 100% het.
66% het is the non-visual offspring from a 100% het x 100% het pairing. Let me explain why it is 66%:
First lets start with a Visual Simple Recessive. A Toffee T+ dwarf retic is a visual expression of the simple recessive toffee gene. That means that it has a toffee gene pair (one toffee gene comes from its mother, one toffee gene from its father).
A 100% het toffee has an incomplete gene pair. That is, one gene is toffee (from one parent), the other is wild type (from the other parent).
So then you breed two 100% het toffees together. These are the possible offsprings for this pairing:
1.) both parents will pass down a toffee gene to one offspring which produces a visual toffee retic.
2.) The mother passes the toffee while the father passes the wild type gene. This will be a 100% het offspring.
3.) The father passes the toffee while the mother passes the wild type gene. This will be a 100% het offspring.
4.). Both parents passes the wild type gene. This will be a wild type (not a toffee gene carrier).
So that, each and every egg in that clutch, has a 25% (1 out of 4) chance of being a toffee, 50% (2 out of 4) chance of being a 100% het, and 25% chance of being a wild type (no toffee at all).
So now, the eggs hatch. It is very easy to pick out the toffee because you can see it. But, what if it is a wild type? There is no visual indication that it is a 100% het or a non toffee gene carrier because they would look the same. But looking at the % possibilities of each egg above, you know that it is 50% chance of being het and 25% chance of being a non carrier. You can strike out the visual toffee because you are guaranteed it isn't. So your het odds improve from 50% (2 in 4 possibilities) to 66% (2 in 3 possibilities). But your non gene carrier odds also improve from 25% (1 in 4 possibilities) to 33% (1 in 3 possibilities).
Therefore, a 66% toffee t+ dwarf retic simply means it has a 66% chance of being a toffee gene carrier and a 33% chance of being a non gene carrier at all. And the only way to know if you lucked out on the 66% is if you breed this snake to a toffee gene carrier and you get a visual offspring.
Hope this helps. |
| PythonManDan |
Posted - 29/10/2013 : 20:00:40
Nice one! Look forward to the pics at the weekend then! |
| rockroyal |
Posted - 29/10/2013 : 18:59:51
Very nice and yes photos are a must |
| Baobab |
Posted - 29/10/2013 : 18:14:00
Well done on the new Retics. I would have agreed with you on the 66% being the possibility of a snakes chance of being het.
Looking forward to seeing those pictures. |
