| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| marc_sg |
Posted - 01/10/2013 : 21:15:18
just watched A video from snakebitez and they hatched 2x scaless royal id love to know how much they go for..... |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| anatess |
Posted - 03/10/2013 : 15:48:25
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDragon
I see the point about breeding in certain traits/mutations, which lets face it, that's what they are. And I flat-out disagree with some of the things people do to Animals just to make them more appealing for others. However, if it can be proven that these scaleless Snake varieties suffer no ill effect from such breeding, mental as well physical of course, then I have to say that I see no reason to be against it as such.
If we are going to breed Animals to be different in some way to their normal wild species then I think it is vital that the Animal's welfare comes first. If all that is involved in that is taken into consideration and the line not carried on if the Animal is in any way suffering or otherwise incapacitated then I believe that it could be OK to do so.
And in fact we have to also take into consideration that the breeding of some Animals has been to better things for them, not always us.
About the scaleless Snakes though, I'm not sure I understand how it's working. There is still a keratin layer there, it's just much thinner, right? So does that mean they do still have scales, they're just not seen as clearly? Or does it mean that what would be their scales has almost morphed into an outer 'skin'?
How do they cope with grip, having no belly scales?
The Animals themselves seem otherwise normal and their colours/patterns are quite stunning and clear.
Some are a bit wrinkly-looking though! X )
The beta-keratin does not form scales everywhere - just some kind of sheeting. When it sheds, the shed skin doesn't stretch. The scaleless Texas Ratsnakes and the Scaleless Cornsnakes that BHB has have varying degrees of ventral scales (the beta keratin on the belly is thicker and the ventral scales form out). They also have varying degrees of scaling on the body (like poppy seeds). So, they're not completely scaleless.
Snakes have varying movements that propel it forward, some movements like sidewinding and serpentine don't require scales if it can't find anything to grip (like in sand dunes). They use pure muscle movements to propel themselves forward.
We don't know yet what degree of scaling these royals are going to have until Brian shows us what these babies look like out of the egg. |
| BlueDragon |
Posted - 03/10/2013 : 09:04:15
I see the point about breeding in certain traits/mutations, which lets face it, that's what they are. And I flat-out disagree with some of the things people do to Animals just to make them more appealing for others. However, if it can be proven that these scaleless Snake varieties suffer no ill effect from such breeding, mental as well physical of course, then I have to say that I see no reason to be against it as such.
If we are going to breed Animals to be different in some way to their normal wild species then I think it is vital that the Animal's welfare comes first. If all that is involved in that is taken into consideration and the line not carried on if the Animal is in any way suffering or otherwise incapacitated then I believe that it could be OK to do so.
And in fact we have to also take into consideration that the breeding of some Animals has been to better things for them, not always us.
About the scaleless Snakes though, I'm not sure I understand how it's working. There is still a keratin layer there, it's just much thinner, right? So does that mean they do still have scales, they're just not seen as clearly? Or does it mean that what would be their scales has almost morphed into an outer 'skin'?
How do they cope with grip, having no belly scales?
The Animals themselves seem otherwise normal and their colours/patterns are quite stunning and clear.
Some are a bit wrinkly-looking though! X ) |
| reptiledanny |
Posted - 03/10/2013 : 08:40:33
quote:
Originally posted by rockroyal
Morph royals still have scales my opinion stands breeding an animal with scales missing is wrong and nothing anyone can ever say to me will change my mind this snake to me is worthless and I don't like using computers and will never own one.
how are you posting online then 
and we need a like button on here, think anatess would be on quite a few now |
| rockroyal |
Posted - 03/10/2013 : 06:58:11
Morph royals still have scales my opinion stands breeding an animal with scales missing is wrong and nothing anyone can ever say to me will change my mind this snake to me is worthless and I don't like using computers and will never own one. |
| marc_sg |
Posted - 02/10/2013 : 23:53:29
Totally agree. Well said. All dogs evolved from the grey wolf now with dogs lil the paris hilton dog and there fasion items. Man has been selectively breed thousands of species f8r hundred if not thousands of year. Take your steak. Cut from a selectively bred cow purely for meat not dairy. Its feed better to produce higher amounts meat for more money. But yes it earns more money than a normal but it also shows how nature evolves and the beautiful things (with a little bit of help) can do and that's all it is being 2 genes the same together if it was wrong then it would be illegal |
| hodgie |
Posted - 02/10/2013 : 18:24:10
Well said Anatess |
| anatess |
Posted - 02/10/2013 : 14:28:27
quote:
Originally posted by rockroyal
They are freaks of nature and I have no interest in said mutants as for breeding them I don't care what anyone including bhb says there doing it for the money.
Why does it automatically become bad if somebody does things for the money? You go to work, right? For the money? That computer you are typing on came into existence because some hotshot wanted to make a lot of money. All these morphs we have came into existence because people like BHB made money. If they didn't make money, they wouldn't be able to produce whatever it is they produce. It would be unsustainable. And if there's anybody who has passion for these animals, it is Brian Barczyk. It's easy for people to judge sitting in their high horses. Go talk to the guy like I have. You'll know exactly what I mean.
Albino royals are freaks of nature. It's not even that they only have a little bit of melanine. They do not have melanine at all. Their chances of survival in the wild is much less than scaleless royals. Nobody seems to care if people breed them by the hundreds. Hyprocritical much.
You know, this is stupid trying to defend a good guy people like to vilify. People want to hate on the guys that make their hobby possible that's their American-like freedom to do so.
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| rockroyal |
Posted - 02/10/2013 : 07:42:54
They are freaks of nature and I have no interest in said mutants as for breeding them I don't care what anyone including bhb says there doing it for the money. |
| anatess |
Posted - 02/10/2013 : 05:56:54
You guys are funny. Scaleless snakes have been in the reptile hobby for over 20 years!
The Bronx Zoo had 2 scaleless Texas Ratsnakes back in the 80's - wild caught. So they do exist in the wild. Also, scaleless gopher snakes have been observed in the wild of different stages of maturity so not only do they exist (although rare, as rare as a morph royal in the wild), they do survive.
The scaleless Ratsnakes and Gopher snakes have been researched extensively. They found several interesting observations... For example, scaleless snakes do not have missing beta keratin. Rather, the beta-keratin layer (that forms scales) is very thin but they still shed it. But, the alpha keratin layer (skin) is a lot thicker than normal. This may be why the scaleless snakes in the wild do not appear to have excessive damage/injury compared to its scaled counterpart. I guess it can be compared to people whose normal mode is to wear shoes have thinner foot soles than those aborigines who do not wear shoes in their normal day-to-day activities whose foot soles are almost as hard as bear paws.
Other observations are that scaleless snakes and scaled snakes have the same hydration and thermoregulation capabilities, things that were associated with the presence of scales.
There are more stuff on those studies all pointing to the conclusion that scaleless snakes are not handicapped.
Brian Barczyk is the leading contributor to scaleless Texas Ratsnake research outside of the zoos, he's been working with them since the early 90's. If there's anybody who would know what to watch for in scaleless royals, it would be him.
So, when I saw that Snakebytes episode, my heart stopped right before cutting and I was super ecstatic that he finally proved out the genetic trait! The scaleless Texas Ratsnake was a simple recessive gene - like an albino trait. The scaleless royal so far has seemed a bit more complicated. But we won't really find out until he produces the next generation.
It's super exciting and a great addition to scales research! |
| jonnyc1988 |
Posted - 01/10/2013 : 22:58:15
Im sure the husbandry for scaleless beardies is completely different. |
| boomslang |
Posted - 01/10/2013 : 22:52:02
quote:
will it cut itself easily?
Guess you'd have to change how you kept it,Ie no wood or fancy setups for it.If it did suffer from what you listed.
But only time will tell right,Or look at scaless corns snakes.See how there doing,As they've been around alittle longer.
As for how much,you'd have to wait and see or ask them.If they are even going to sell them at all yet. |
| jonnyc1988 |
Posted - 01/10/2013 : 21:23:58
I quizzed BHB on facebook about the implications of the snake being scaleless, obviously you are removing its defenses which I guess arent essential in captivity. But then you have to ask if it is safe from pathogens/ will it need to be kept at lower temps to prevent burning? will it cut itself easily? it must be more fragile.
They replied saying that the scaleless wont cause any problems.
Im still not a fan, but I guess its no different to inbreeding dogs to have shorter snouts/legs etc. |
