| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| JanieW |
Posted - 07/03/2012 : 17:16:36
I am just posting my colours for the Mousers debate team
Quotes
Statements
My Speech |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| austin_89 |
Posted - 04/04/2012 : 12:17:36
Im really sorry i couldn't reply but there wasn't much i could do on my phone  I didn't realise the rebuttal wasn't posted either... |
| JanieW |
Posted - 01/04/2012 : 23:38:38
hehe Bats, you should have joined the debate :)
Slinky is on adult mice now tho, he isn't obese, not by a long shot but I wouldn't want him much fatter lol |
| Lotabob |
Posted - 01/04/2012 : 23:37:21
See debating is so much easier when its a free for all. lol. |
| n/a |
Posted - 01/04/2012 : 23:32:35
http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp
Yeah, the neonatals do, but juvenile mice are actually fattier than juvenile rats, as for adults, since an adult rat is a far larger animal, it's got to have a greater fat content. Plus an adult royal usually fasts for a good period and can take that fat content to tide itself over.
Sorry - Bats says - RATSSSSSS!!!!
(And so do my royals) |
| JanieW |
Posted - 01/04/2012 : 23:16:07
Trouble is Bats, that while its true that they have less nutritional value, they do have a higher fat value  |
| n/a |
Posted - 01/04/2012 : 22:50:20
Ah, Janie, if you claim that a young rat has less nutritional value than an adult mouse, but that you're worried about mouse-fed Slinky piling it on, then might be better to switch him to rats???
Just a thought. |
| Scottydog |
Posted - 01/04/2012 : 19:53:09
its a shame this didnt get finished, I was really enjoying being a spectator. Lots of interesting points and plenty of food for thought. |
| Lotabob |
Posted - 01/04/2012 : 19:34:48
Now I never said they were better lol. I've seen the effect switching has had on Sanke and I would also hate to have a snake hooked on a prey item not of a suitable size so I do think that nutritional information aside (as its entirely subjective and dependant on a lot of changeable factors that will vary wildly from one mouse/rat to the next) rats are a better option for Royals. |
| JanieW |
Posted - 01/04/2012 : 17:01:32
Thank you Rob :)
True enough, debate is an art and it takes alot of research making certain to get the facts right:)
On the Tolkien forum I used to write 4000 words, we all did and god help you to miss a deadline lol
I'm glad that it showed that mice can be better, and blanket feeding rats is not the best way to feed, age depending.
I hope now you can understand why I have my two on large mice as both are just 6 months old and even then Slinky is plump to say the least lol |
| Lotabob |
Posted - 01/04/2012 : 14:55:13
There have been a few interesting points so thanks Janie, if anything it has shown another side to the feed rats blanket argument. I think it only fell flat because not everyone knows the ways of debate, me included.
Does this mean now that the TRP advice for feeding Royals is now to feed mice? |
| JanieW |
Posted - 01/04/2012 : 00:25:43
Unfortunately the Rats team failed to post twice, and 48hrs past the deadline means the post is void anyway I'll close this debate.
Thanks for taking part and also for reading :) |
| JanieW |
Posted - 27/03/2012 : 23:35:24
Team Mousers
First Rebuttal~~Rats are better fed to Royals than mice
Opponents Rebutted Claims..Orange
My Quotes..Purple
Greetings fellow snake enthusiasts,
This is the part of the proceedings that is the favourite of many, as now we highlight and explain the false claims, and any inconsistencies in the points made by the opposing team.
On this occasion Anatess has my full attention, and on that note let us proceed. It must be said before I begin my rebuttal, that she wrote with style, and her passion simply leapt from the page while I read, it was beautifully written.
Native Prey
Royal pythons in the wild hunt down African rats in their burrows and then use those burrows as a safe haven as they digest. With all the choices of prey items in West Africa, wild royal pythons choose to prey on African rats. This clearly indicates that an African rat is of the proper nutritional content required by the natural healthy growth of a royal python.
Originally posted by Anatess
That statement is misleading and and has no bearing on this debate whatsoever, why? You might ask, well follow as I explain.
The name most of you will be more familiar with is the Multimammate..or multis. It is a completely separate feeding option that very few offer to Royals for a couple of reasons:
Firstly they are not broadly available from suppliers
Secondly they are far more expensive.
Anatess is trying to have you believe that an African Rat is a genuine rat, but that is blatantly untrue as you will soon see for yourself.
The name African Rat or African Soft Furred are not a scientific titles, and the latter was given for one reason only, its fur:
It possesses long, soft, silky fur, hence its alternative name of Soft-furred Rat.
http://www.rcreptiles.com/blog/index.php/2007/05/14/meet_the_african_soft_furred_rat
I shall now point out, and prove that an African Soft Furred is not only not a rat, it isnt even related to a rat !
The Multimammate Rat appears to be a connecting link between the true mice and rats, though it shows slightly more affinity to the rats than it does to the mice. Since no one can be quite sure about its relationship to other members of the Muridae, it has been alternatively classified at various times within the genus Mus (the true mice), Rattus (the true rats) although it shares features of both genera, latest research shows that it is not directly related to either http://www.rcreptiles.com/blog/index.php/2007/05/14/meet_the_african_soft_furred_rat
Now I shall move on to Anatess next section;
Prey Preference for a Picky Eater
These challenges can be mitigated when the African Rat - it's natural prey item - is chosen as their food. Most American Breeders have a colony of African rats to feed wild-caught royal pythons or neonates that refuse the common rat. They get the royals healthy and settled before trying to switch them to the common rat which is more widely available and cheaper than the African rat.http://www.theroyalpython.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8475
That statement shows a critical flaw as it shows that the two are not related by suggesting that breeders keep African Rats for if a snake refuses a common rat.
The term common rat simply refers to The Brown Rat:
The brown rat, common rat, sewer rat, Hanover rat, Norway rat, brown Norway rat, Norwegian rat, or wharf rat (Rattus norvegicus) is one of the best known and most common rats.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_rat
Now you are probably thinking well we dont feed wild rats and definately not sewer rats!
Indeed we dont, we feed the Fancy Rat, a domesticated brown rat.
The fancy rat is a domesticated brown rat (Rattus norvegicus), which is the most common type of pet rat.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fancy_rat
That is why many frozen rats are various colour variations such as: hooded rat, white, grey, tan. All the colours you can buy at the pet shops are fancy rats or as we better know them..pet rats.
Now lets return to the body of this topic, yes some do feed Multimammates also known as African Soft Furred Rats, and yes there is some evidence that they can tempt a picky eater, but since they are NOT even related to rats it really is a mute point.
This debate has a set theme Rats are better fed to Royals than mice , not multis, hamsters or gerbils, just rats.
The final point that Anatess covered was Prey size, I have undoubtedly brought to your attention the faults up to this point, so time to move on.
Prey Size
I follow most of the threads, especially when somebody takes a new Royal home, many are young snakes of just a few months of age or neonates.
It is these that require a nutritious diet, a diet that is rich in Protein, Calcium and Vitamin A, it is three in particular essential for good health and healthy growth for the young snakes.
I covered the nutrional values in a straight comparison in my second argument, so I will not repeat all my earlier writings, except Fuzzy Rats and Small Mice. Firstly I wish to comment on the last statement that Anatess posted:
The smallest rat available in stores is the pinky rat that weighs around the 5gram mark. This size is a perfect prey item for a neonate royal python as a baby royal averages at around 50grams at birth. So that, a royal python can be fed its proper prey item - the rat - from birth all the way to adulthood.
Originally posted by Anatess
While it might be true of the physical size, I would not recommend this diet for the following reason
Fuzzy Rat
Protein..16.8--Calcium..0.62--Vitamin A..N/A
Small Mouse
Protein..18.2--Calcium..0.97--Vitamin A..189,095www.house-of-reptiles.com/feedervertebrates.pdf
A small mouse is of comparable size to a fuzzy rat, but as you can see the nutritional value is far greater.
I believe I have covered all the points on rats given by Anatess , the Multimammate just to give indisputable evidence that they are not classed as rats. Their name simply means many breasted.
The next post will likely be the first rebuttal for the Rats team, as Im sorry to say misfortune struck and they failed to display their second argument.
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| JanieW |
Posted - 23/03/2012 : 14:50:43
Team Mousers
Second Argument Rats are better fed to Royals than mice
Hi Folks,
I previously discussed with you the health concerns involved with feeding rats to snakes prematurely , calling on the expertise of herpetologists and professional snake breeders to add factual evidence to my argument.
In this, the second and final argument in favour of feeding mice in preference to rats, I shall endeavour to point out the nutritional values of both species and the ultimate shortfall of rats.
Much as I dislike large sections of copied text in my debates, on this occasion, due to scientific data I had no other option available to convey the researched information I uncovered.
Firstly allow me to point you to a comprehensive breakdown on the dietary requirements for a Royal:
Explanation of the components
1 - Since all animals need water, the moisture in food is an important source of water. Older feeder animals generally contain less moisture than younger feeder animals.
2 - Proteins are the building blocks of muscle and other tissues. Proteins (and carbohydrates) each contain about 4.0 kcal/g of Metabolizable Energy.
3 - Dietary fat helps in the absorption of vitamins A, D and E, and is a concentrated source of energy (about 9.0 kcal/g of Metabolizable Energy). Animals metabolize fat at a much higher
rate than do humans.
4 - Vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin that is required for healthy skin, mucous membranes, the retina of the eye, muscles, teeth and other tissues. Vitamin A deficiency is probably the
second most common contributor to premature reptile and amphibian death.
5 - Reptiles need Vitamin D3 in order to metabolize calcium. Vitamin D3 is acquired through the suns rays, through proper UVB lighting and/or through supplementation. It is interesting
to note that chameleons that are fed crickets gut-loaded with this vitamin will spend less time basking.
6 - This fat soluble vitamin is an important anti-oxidant and is essential for proper cell function. As with the other vitamins, there is no scientifically-supported recommended level for this
vitamin in the diet of reptiles and amphibians. At this point, it is educated guess-work taken from other species.
7 - Proper Calcium levels are important for bone and tooth growth, heart health and proper metabolic functioning. Calcium deficiency is one of the leading causes of Metabolic Bone
Disease and probably the leading cause of premature reptile and amphibian death.
8 - Phosphorous is a chemical element that, combined with Calcium, forms the majority of bone in the body and it is used in nearly all the bodys metabolic processes. Too much
phosphorous can inhibit the absorption of calcium. Generally speaking, reptiles need a calcium to phosphorous ratio of between 1:1 and 2:1.
9 - Metabolizable Energy (ME) is a combination of the gross energy of the feeder animal + how digestible it is + a factor for metabolizing the nutrients it contains. To illustrate the
importance of ME, a 450 gram bearded dragon will need approximately 10.8 kcal/g of energy per day, and a 1200 gram ball python will need approximately 25.8 kcal/g of energy
per day.
www.house-of-reptiles.com/feedervertebrates.pdf
I was delighted when I stumbled across the previous information, all the nutritional charts I have seen never tell me what vitamins actually do nutritionally.
Now I shall move on to show two charts of nutrition in mice and then rats:
Nutritional Comparisons between mice and rats
Domestic Mouse (Adult, >10g)
Moisture 1.
...........................67.3
Protein 2.
............................18.2
Fat 3
......................... .. .7.7
Vitamin A 4 IU/kg)
.............189,095
Vitamin E 6.
.........................33(IU/kg)
Calcium 7
............... ........0.97
Phosphorous 8.
...................0.56
Metabolizable Energy 9.(kcal/g)
.1.42
www.house-of-reptiles.com/feedervertebrates.pdf
Rat (juvenile, 10-50g)
Moisture 1.
...........................70.1
Protein 2.
............................16.8
Fat 3
......................... .. .8.3
Vitamin A 4 IU/kg)
.............N/A
Vitamin E 6.
.........................N/A
Calcium 7
............... ........0.62
Phosphorous 8.
...................N/A
Metabolizable Energy 9.(kcal/g)
..1.42
Data Sources
Dierenfeld, Alcorn and Jacobsen, 2002. Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey (Excluding Fish) Fed in Zoos. AZA, Nutrition Advisory Group Handbook, 14. Finke, 2002. Energetics of Free-
Ranging Mammals, Reptiles and Birds. Annual Review of Nutrition 19:247-278.
www.house-of-reptiles.com/feedervertebrates.pdf
Feel free to read those two charts, but now I shall break it down to further explain and prove that mice are the superior feeder for snakes up to one year.
Vitamin A is responsible for healthy eyes, bone besides other tissues, deficiency of this vitamin is responsible for premature death of snakes. You will notice from the charts that mice provide 189,095, whilst juvenile rats recorded N/A, only the adult rat and neonatal had values of 51.321 & 4.437 respectively, both substantially lower than an adult mouse.
Calcium is vital, it ensures healthy bone growth, heart and metabolism. Deficiency of Calcium is the major cause of death.
Calcium in an adult mouse is .35 higher than what an equivalent size rat provides, higher too than an adult rat which only has 0.89 while an adult mouse is 0.97
From the facts I presented to you, you can see for yourself that feeding mice provide more vital nutrients than rats.
Above I have shown the nutritional aspects of feeding, but what does a Royal eat its native habitat?
Well let me give you the answer.
Natural Royal Food
In the wild, their diet consists mostly of small mammals, such as African soft-furred rats, shrews and striped mice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_regius
African Soft Furred Rat
The Multimammate Rat appears to be a connecting link between the true mice and rats, though it shows slightly more affinity to the rats than it does to the mice. Since no one can be quite sure about its relationship to other members of the Muridae, it has been alternatively classified at various times within the genus Mus (the true mice)
http://www.rcreptiles.com
We feed the domestic mouse and rat, neither are wild not even here in the United Kingdom. Domestic rats otherwise known as The Fancy Rat are what we feed either frozen or live.
Then we have The Fancy Mouse , again popular pets, but I suspect that the mice we feed are laboratory mice.
This part has no real bearing on this debate, other than to prove that whichever we feed to our Royal, either mouse or rat, neither are their natural diet.
Availabity
I will not dwell on this topic for long, as I really have no wish to bring any frozen rodent supplier into a poorer light.
I can say however that while researching I made a few calls to suppliers and in two, weaner rats were not available.
Mice of all stages are always ready for delivery.
Closing Statement
I am going to close this final argument on behalf of the Mousers, I have covered Health and Nutritional Values in depth and briefly discussed the natural food stuffs and Availability.
If you are an avid feeder of rats, I am neither asking or expecting you to change, but I am hoping that you read this debate and better understand the needs of our beloved snakes. I know I learned a lot whilst researching.
So now allow me to hand you back to Team Rats, I shall be following closely for I am open to new ideas .
Thanks for listening |
| anatess |
Posted - 22/03/2012 : 05:08:50
Team Rat
Constructive Argument #1:
The royal python has been steadily gaining popularity in the pet trade. As our knowledge of the royal python's native environment and behaviors increase, the more we desire to provide our pets with the best possible environment in our own homes that closely resemble their native habitat. As royal python enthusiasts, one of our first concerns is our pet's dietary requirement. Studying the native prey of a royal python supports my view that rats are the best food to feed your pet royal python.
But before I present my contentions, I would like to present some definitions.
Definition #1:
The royal python, also called regal python or ball python, refers to the python regius species placed in the subfamily Pythoninae, within the family Boidae, in the order Squamata and the class Reptilia. Royal pythons range from Senegal to Togo in west Africa, and eastward to the Nile River in southern Sudan.
http://www.zoo.org/page.aspx?pid=403
Definition #2:
Rats are any rattus species in subfamily murinae, within the family muridae, in the order Rodentia. Also included in this classification is the mastomys natalus of the same subfamily, commonly called African Soft-fur Rat or African rat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat
http://www.rcreptiles.com/blog/index.php/2007/05/14/meet_the_african_soft_furred_rat
Definition #3:
We specifically define "better" as that which provides for a more superior overall health and well-being of the pet royal python as well as provides for the humane treatment of the prey and its population.
Native Prey
I therefore contend that rats are better fed to royals than mice for the main reason that rats are one of the royal python's native prey animal and is then closer to their native diet than mice.
http://www.zoo.org/page.aspx?pid=403 (refer to the section under Diet)
Royal pythons in the wild hunt down African rats in their burrows and then use those burrows as a safe haven as they digest. With all the choices of prey items in West Africa, wild royal pythons choose to prey on African rats. This clearly indicates that an African rat is of the proper nutritional content required by the natural healthy growth of a royal python.
This natural preference to African rats has been clearly documented by royal python breeders. Sapphiretigress.com states this for feeding snakes:
"The wild caught ball pythons are most receptive to eating soft furs, an African native food source." http://www.sapphiretigress.com/Softfurs.htm
Turning Fork Reptiles states:
"In the never ending search for information and practices which improve the way we care for our animals we decided to experiment with African soft fur rats (ASF'S) as a prey item for our ball pythons. We were so impressed with the results that we set up a whole room dedicated to breeding these interesting (an apparently delicious) rodents."
http://www.tuningforkreptile.com/caresheets/africansoftfurrats.html
Prey Preference for a Picky Eater
As we all know, royal pythons are classified as a moderately challenging exotic pet to keep. This is different than, say, a corn snake, that are classified as a beginner pet. The main reason for this classification is the very common challenge of a prey refusal. Royal pythons are very sensitive to changes in its environment and it is a common response for royals to refuse food. A wild-caught royal, for example, can refuse a feed for months at a time. It is also common for a baby snake fresh out of the egg, even one from captive-bred parents to refuse to eat for several weeks past the expected age of first feed.
These challenges can be mitigated when the African Rat - it's natural prey item - is chosen as their food. Most American Breeders have a colony of African rats to feed wild-caught royal pythons or neonates that refuse the common rat. They get the royals healthy and settled before trying to switch them to the common rat which is more widely available and cheaper than the African rat.
Prey Size
More importantly, it can be a challenge to change what a royal python's prey item is after it imprints on a specific item. A royal goes through a period of stress as it seeks out its prey. The African rat is one of the royal python's native prey item because of the appropriateness of its size. At an adult size of 60-80grams, it is much larger than a mouse and about the size of a medium rat. It is established as a rule of thumb in the royal python community that an appropriate sized prey for a royal python under 1kg in size is 10-15% of its body weight. According to the royal python growth chart, the royal python reaches 200grams at about 5 months of age, 400grams at about 10 months, 800grams at about a year and 1kg in about 18 months.
http://theroyalpython.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4437
The largest mouse available for sale at a feed store is around the 40gram mark. http://www.frozenfeeder.com/sizing.html. This means that by the time a royal python is 10 months old, it will have to either feed off of multiple mice or switch to rats. Feeding multiple prey items to a royal python in one sitting can be stressful to the snake. This is usually done by letting the snake eat the first prey item and before he finishes, another prey item is positioned right behind the other causing the snake to continue to swallow the next item before it repositions its jaw. A snake is at its most vulnerable when he is eating. Disturbing a feeding snake to introduce another prey item could risk a regurge. Also, feeding multiple prey items in one sitting can easily lead to power-feeding - where a royal python consumes more food than is appropriate - because the decision on whether the food is too much is taken out of the snake's hands and into the owner's. Feeding multiple prey items by encouraging multiple strikes is not as successful because a royal is a finicky eater and more than likely will refuse the second item. Therefore, most royal python owners and breeders feed their royals rats, even from birth, to eliminate the risk of having to multi-feed or to have to switch later to the more appropriate-sized rat.
Ron Crawford, a renowned royal python breeder expressed this about his decision to change his shop from mice to rats:
"The reason why I'm going to try to switch my mouse feeders to Soft Furred Rats is due to the size of the Soft Furred Rat compared to a mouse. I have some adult females that will easily feed on eight or better mice in one feeding. Raising eight mice requires a large amount of time and energy because it takes some time for baby mice to grow into adulthood. Soft African Rats on the other hand are much larger so one or two should be sufficient per feeding. My ultimate goal is to switch the mouse feeders to African Soft Furred Rats and then switch them to domestic rats. The same logic applies here as well, domestic rats are much larger than Soft African Rats so one rat is quite sufficient for the same ball python per feeding."
http://www.rcreptiles.com/blog/index.php/2007/05/14/meet_the_african_soft_furred_rat br /
The smallest rat available in stores is the pinky rat that weighs around the 5gram mark. This size is a perfect prey item for a neonate royal python as a baby royal averages at around 50grams at birth. So that, a royal python can be fed its proper prey item - the rat - from birth all the way to adulthood.
Just from these contentions on this first argument, it is already clear to see that rats are vastly superior to mice as the proper food item for a pet royal python.
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| JanieW |
Posted - 22/03/2012 : 01:21:23
I forgot to add GMT..ok Ana as soon as you can ,that was my fault |
| anatess |
Posted - 22/03/2012 : 01:17:00
Whoa... there's UK time and there's US time...
I just got off work... |
| austin_89 |
Posted - 21/03/2012 : 23:21:23
I'll give her chance cause she seemed keen to post first argument and rebuttal |
| JanieW |
Posted - 21/03/2012 : 23:11:19
Alright, the deadline has passed, but no you need to let me know whether you wish to substitute Ana or give another chance..
1 - 59 mins late 10% deduction
1 - 24hrs 15% deduction
24-48 another 10%
49hrs and the post will be scratched
You can pull in a substitute debater if you know you are going to have difficulties, but request for a sub has to be posted within the deadline. |
| JanieW |
Posted - 21/03/2012 : 21:44:23
I edited you in Kelf :) |
| Kelfezond |
Posted - 21/03/2012 : 21:22:28
Just to let you know I'm happy to do the first rebuttal might want to add it to the date |
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