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Strawb
Yearling
Germany
120 Posts |
 Posted - 15/02/2011 : 09:31:45
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Hello everyone,
this is my first post, as I've just received my first royal via a friend who works at a vets and was given the snake by the previous owners.
It is a very nervous creature as the previous owners apparently had no time for it and never took it out of it's vivarium. 
According to the paperwork it hatched on 15 April 2008. This is where I have a bit of a problem.
The snake is about 80cm long and weighs 484g. Now the chart of weight to age ratios that someone (sorry, forgotten the name) kindly posted on this forum says that a snake of this weight should be a maximum of about 18 months. The snake is healthy and has been eating well.
Could someone please let me know what the average size and weight of a 3 year old royal should be? And if the snake is really younger than the certificate says, then how old would you say it was?
Unfortunately even the sex of it is a mystery.
Thanks for any replies and I'm finding the forum really useful.
All the best,
Dave
P.s. Could anyone recommend a good book on royal python biology, care and breeding etc? |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 10:04:10
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It's difficult to guess its age, I have two snakes that weigh almost the same and have 7 months between them.
It's unlikely that the snake is 3 years old if its only 484g but I guess if it was starved it's possible.
Certainly interesting though- keep us all updated here :) |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 11:38:36
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Hi, glad to hear you've been able to rescue the snake.
Like Kelfezond, I too have two snakes of almost the same weight, only in their case there's a year between them. One I bought as a hatchling, the other came secondhand but was well-cared for. Saada, the cf09, weighs only 10gm more than Shahi, who is cf10.
There are various feeding regimes (shops will often feed differently to breeders) and the snakes themselves develop differently; it's possible you may never know for sure, but at least you can give the snake a good life and I hope it starts to enjoy its new home with you. |
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 13:12:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Strawb
Hello everyone,
this is my first post, as I've just received my first royal via a friend who works at a vets and was given the snake by the previous owners.
It is a very nervous creature as the previous owners apparently had no time for it and never took it out of it's vivarium.
According to the paperwork it hatched on 15 April 2008. This is where I have a bit of a problem.
The snake is about 80cm long and weighs 484g. Now the chart of weight to age ratios that someone (sorry, forgotten the name) kindly posted on this forum says that a snake of this weight should be a maximum of about 18 months. The snake is healthy and has been eating well.
Could someone please let me know what the average size and weight of a 3 year old royal should be? And if the snake is really younger than the certificate says, then how old would you say it was?
On the same graph http://www.theroyalpython.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4437 you can see the average weight at 36 months. |
 
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Strawb
Yearling
Germany
120 Posts |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 18:02:49
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Thanks for the replies.
Black echo: It was the weight on your chart at 36 months that made me question the certificate in the first place.
I've also found out that it was supposedly hatched in Africa and then flown here to Germany. If this is the case, I certainly won't be buying anything from the pet shop that sold the snake in the first place. The more I hear of this poor snake's past the more angry I get
Still, it's going to get a nice bath and a clean up tonight.
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hodgie
Fully Grown Royal
United Kingdom
1197 Posts |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 18:23:08
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| I wouldn`t worry to much, my pastel male was only 600g and 3 years old when i got him (from a breeder with full feeding records) I`ve had him over a year and a half and he`s just touching 1000g. Some will groww faster than others, maybe he was only given the odd mouse so didnt get the chance to put on much weight. Get him in a nice setup and get him feeding and go from there. |
Royals owned "lots"
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 18:41:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Strawb
Thanks for the replies.
Black echo: It was the weight on your chart at 36 months that made me question the certificate in the first place.
I've also found out that it was supposedly hatched in Africa and then flown here to Germany. If this is the case, I certainly won't be buying anything from the pet shop that sold the snake in the first place. The more I hear of this poor snake's past the more angry I get
Still, it's going to get a nice bath and a clean up tonight.
Most of the royal pythons in pet shops in the UK (and other parts of the world) are what is known as cf (captive farmed) which means the eggs are harvested in West Africa (usually Ghana) and the hatchlings flown abroad to be reared for the pet trade. There are a lot of conflicting reports and views on this practice. At best, it's said that a percentage of hatchlings must be kept and released back into the wild to keep up the indigenous royal population; at worst there are reports of cramped and disgusting conditions for the hatchlings. I confess I didn't realise all this until after I'd bought Shahi - like you, I thought, well, he's here now and I can give him a good home, and like you I was pretty horrified about this trade. Saada too is cf - she was for sale because her owner was moving into accommodation where she wasn't allowed, and when I saw her I just fell in love. She was a snake who needed a new home, although it was clear that her owner was very sorry to part with her.
Yes, the cf trade bothers me too. All the best with your snake, by the way - sounds as if she/he has fallen into good hands. |
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Edited by - n/a on 15/02/2011 18:42:31 |
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Royalbob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
1115 Posts |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 18:45:14
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| Also some breeders or shops really slow the feeding down on males once they reach 500-600g |
1.0 Enchi butter
1.0 Enchi X Pastel
1.0 Fire het clown
1.0 Bumblebee
1.0 pinstripe
0.1 Enchi Fire
0.1 Pastel calico
0.1 Yellow belly Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon pastel poss het clown
0.1 Het clown
0.1 Yellow belly
0.1 Green Mojave
0.1 HC Albino
0.2 Normals
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 19:04:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Royalbob
Also some breeders or shops really slow the feeding down on males once they reach 500-600g
True enough. |
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Lancelot
Hatchling
United Kingdom
81 Posts |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 19:14:07
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I sympathise with your frustration with age and past history. I too have an unclear history but the best we can for the snake now is just concentrate on the here and now and to make sure the keep healthy from here, onwards.
I'm in the process of try to get my facts straight before i sign up for the pet insurance which i found messy last time round. |
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 19:24:01
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Why is it that feeding for males is curtailed? I've never heard of this before.
I know that some shops feed snakes on a 'maintenance' diet - also it's more convenient to feed weekly. Shahi, who should have been fed every 5 days, was being offered food every week (unclear if he was eating - another story, but he's made up for it since, the lump!) Saada, on the advice of the local pet supermarket, was being fed every fortnight (no detriment meant to her owner, who thought he was doing the right thing by taking their advice.)
Right at the moment the little gits are still on the winter fast but they didn't half stuff themselves beforehand lol. |
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 15/02/2011 : 19:37:34
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| Some people feel that a smaller male will breed more voraciously than a larger male. |
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Strawb
Yearling
Germany
120 Posts |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 07:35:17
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Thanks again for the information.
The snake was fed every 2 weeks from what I've learned, although if the previous owners are telling the truth is another matter. If they didn't have time to handle their snake I can't imagine feeding was that regular.
Regarding the trade in royals. Profit always comes first for most of the large scale suppliers, with welfare of the animals pretty low down on the priority list. Unfortunately I'd imagine most people looking for their first royal would just go to their nearest pet shop and pick one up, no questions regarding history.
I don't know if my royal is female or male, but I've decided to call her Tia. The advice given to me by the vet was that I always had to hold her head tightly or else she'd bite. The vet had been bitten twice.  She seemed to be a bit rough for my liking. I haven't held Tia's head tight, just held her in my hands and she's never felt inclined to bite. TLC is what is required here.
Any advice about Royal books? |
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 07:39:58
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| The Complete Ball Python by Kevin McCurley is great, but can be expensive, should be able to find it on Amazon or some similar site. |
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 10:52:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Strawb
Thanks again for the information.
The snake was fed every 2 weeks from what I've learned, although if the previous owners are telling the truth is another matter. If they didn't have time to handle their snake I can't imagine feeding was that regular.
Regarding the trade in royals. Profit always comes first for most of the large scale suppliers, with welfare of the animals pretty low down on the priority list. Unfortunately I'd imagine most people looking for their first royal would just go to their nearest pet shop and pick one up, no questions regarding history.
I don't know if my royal is female or male, but I've decided to call her Tia. The advice given to me by the vet was that I always had to hold her head tightly or else she'd bite. The vet had been bitten twice. She seemed to be a bit rough for my liking. I haven't held Tia's head tight, just held her in my hands and she's never felt inclined to bite. TLC is what is required here.
Any advice about Royal books?
Oh no! Poor Tia!
I remember learning as a little girl watching tv wildlife programmes, that a way to handle a wild and possibly dangerous snake was to grip it behind the head (easier said than done, I imagine) and hold its tail with your other hand. I think these days a hook would be used.
To do that to a royal, who is notoriously head-shy ...I'm not surprised the vet got bitten.
I realise of course that if someone was inexperienced with reptiles this would be seen as a sensible safety precaution, but poor Tia. Never mind, she'll regain her confidence with you, and they're not all head-shy. Somehow I realised my Surahi seems to like - well, tolerate, because she doesn't move away, gentle stroking of her throat. (Sentimental of me I know but if I ever did have to handle her near her head, at least she's accustomed to it.)
I feel dead embarrassed that I didn't realise fully about captive farming - I'd been on RFUK for a few months, after all, and read loads on this forum but somehow I never came across clear info about cf until after Shahi was purchased. Mind you, he was in the country by then, glad I've got him too.
Amazon have three used copies of Kevin McCurley's 'Complete Ball Python', starting at £48.
Ah, sorry, amendment ... I got tempted. (For the sake of my snakes, you understand ...)
But the good news is that they still have two, starting at £56. I believe the price of a brand new book is around £100.
Another amendment - the brand new book isn't even available in the UK as far as I can see (just making sure I had my facts straight.) Don't know how available it is in the rest of Europe. You can get it from NERD for $65 inc shipping though - it's said to work out far cheaper than English prices too. I'm satisfied with amazon though - can't get my head round dollars and paypal. |
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Edited by - n/a on 16/02/2011 15:17:49 |
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Snecklifter
Yearling
United Kingdom
144 Posts |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 14:25:51
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[/quote]
Most of the royal pythons in pet shops in the UK (and other parts of the world) are what is known as cf (captive farmed)
[/quote]
Is that true? I know that in the USA, CF is the most common method of producing snakes, or even wild caught and imported. But in the UK I'd heard this was much less common and that most reputable pet shope source captive bred snakes from reputable breeders. |
0.0.1 Royal 'Trowzer' |
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 15:11:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Snecklifter
Most of the royal pythons in pet shops in the UK (and other parts of the world) are what is known as cf (captive farmed)
[/quote]
Is that true? I know that in the USA, CF is the most common method of producing snakes, or even wild caught and imported. But in the UK I'd heard this was much less common and that most reputable pet shope source captive bred snakes from reputable breeders.
[/quote]
..................................................oops think the quote print thingy didn't work.
'Reputable' being the operative word, I'm afraid. There are some marvellous shops out there who do sell captive bred, but from what I gathered when researching into cf, the majority of normal hatchlings in the shops (obviously no morph will be cf!) are cf, and there are plenty of shops who will sell them.
By the way, I'm not saying these are substandard snakes - Shahi's weight was commented on by BE as being a record, and although Saada's small, she's a little smasher.
But I wish the cf trade didn't exist, all the same. True, true, it may provide an income for poorly waged people in Africa, as well as a fat profit for businessmen, but what really does bother me is the kind of commercial process these little snakes have survived; if they do survive:- shipped abroad, then put into shop display conditions, then bought by possibly very inexperienced people (I sure was, even though I'd got corns already. I just thank my lucky stars, and Shahi's, that I'd discovered this forum!) |
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Edited by - n/a on 16/02/2011 15:14:22 |
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 16:16:01
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| Remember that fresh blood lines (which can only be obtained from the wild) will make the species stronger rather than several generations of in-breeding, so some amount is a positive. |
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 16:49:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackecho
Remember that fresh blood lines (which can only be obtained from the wild) will make the species stronger rather than several generations of in-breeding, so some amount is a positive.
True enough, but what about all the poor little devils that don't survive, or go to homes where the owners are too inexperienced/indifferent/badly advised by the shop to care for them properly?
Shahi and I faced a pretty awful dilemma when he first arrived - I was too new and shy on the forum to confess - we came through it through commonsense (both his and mine lol) and reading on this forum, but things could have so easily gone wrong.
Thank goodness they didn't. |
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 16/02/2011 : 19:02:30
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| I agree that there is far too much of it overall. |
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Royal with an unclear history!
