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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
 Posted - 27/04/2011 : 19:15:54
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So, my son is in 4th grade and he came up with this crazy idea for his science experiment that I thought was cool. But - he is asking me how to set up the experiment and I have no idea how to execute it successfully.
So, here is the experiment he wants to do:
Question: Do Ball Pythons have memory?
(I googled the question and I can't find a definitive answer... hah! So, this should be interesting)
So, this is what my son came up with - He has this book that shows a mouse getting the cheese through a maze and how the mouse remembers how to solve the maze everytime...
So now he wants to build that standard maze they used for the rat for our ball pythons and see if the ball python can remember how to solve it.
So, what I've come up with so far is to somehow give the snake a strong impetus to move from point A to point B through the maze and then time how fast he can get to point B. Then do it again the exact time the next day for the same maze for the same snake and see if his time improves. Do this for 14 consecutive days.
Then, we'll have our 2nd ball python do the same maze but have him do the maze every 12 hours for 7 days.
Then we'll have our 3rd ball python do the same maze but have him do the maze every hour for 14 hours.
Note the times and come up with a conclusion.
But... the only thing I can think of to get the snake moving from point A to point B is to put a rat on point B... well, the project has to be completed within 2 weeks - and my snakes only eat once a week. So that won't work.
I thought of putting point B at 85 degrees while keeping the rest of the maze at 50 degrees... but not sure how I can pull that off.
Maybe put the maze in bright light and cover point B so it is dark...
I don't know what's going to work! Any ideas??? The impetus is a controlled variable so the snake has to consistently react to it and consistently seek point B instead of being satisfied with hanging out on a corner of the puzzle...
What do you guys think? Think this will work? |
        
Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
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Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
5008 Posts |
Posted - 27/04/2011 : 19:32:53
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I'd pick a better lab rat than a royal python. The repeated maze situation over a long period of time will probably just stress them out. They will cheat horrendously too, they can smell food from accross the room so they'd just follow the scent, then there is the whole 1 meal a week thing so you'd have to lure them to a prey item they cant actually get at and good luck picking them up again after doing that without becoming the prey. I think the maze idea is a nice idea but is too mammal orientated to be adapted into an experiment on an animal very prone to stress.
I have no idea how to make an animal that very much does as it pleases act in a way that shows evidence of memory. I mean you can observe them and we all know they remember stuff but their main drive would be their senses. |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 27/04/2011 : 20:20:39
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Biggest problem I see is trying to give the snake a reason to go from one point to another without feeding it or causing it stress.
The only way I can think of doing it is to introduce snake to a maze with 4 or so straight tunnels side by side made from something smell can pass between like mesh or cloth to stop the snake cheating and just remove the rat when the snake moves up one of the tunnels, although the problem there is getting him to remember which tunnel is right as he's only likely to rememeber it if he's rewarded with his meal...
Tricky one i'll think on this a little more I love problem solving like this |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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Strawb
Yearling
Germany
120 Posts |
Posted - 27/04/2011 : 21:44:08
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Kelfezond's idea with the tubes is good, but instead of using a food incentive could you try warmth instead?
Present the python with four bent tubes, this will prevent the snake from sensing the heat directly. At the end of one is an IR bulb for example. The others have no heat source.
After handling pythons usually cool down and like to warm up afterwards. Keep the IR bulb in the same place until the snake chooses that tube every time. Then move the IR bulb to the end of a different tube and see where the snake goes. If it can remember where it went each time, it should try the same tube even when you've moved the bulb.
I can't guarantee that this will work, but at least it may be repeatable over a short period of time, which the food experiment wouldn't.
Good luck with what ever solution you choose. and be prepared that the snakes won't co-operate in any way. |
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Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
5008 Posts |
Posted - 27/04/2011 : 22:34:49
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Heat again is going to be driven by sense. Those heat pits aren't just used for hunting. There is also the point of is the snake remembering where it went or just following its own scent. I just think for such a well developed sensory animal designing an experiment to remove the reliance on most of its senses is going to be very difficult. The only thing I can think is you would need to use their senses during a teaching stage and teach the snake using heat or scent over a long period, so tube 3 for example is always where the food is until there is little to no hesitation going down tube 3. Then the recollection stage where you then remove the food and all food/trail/residual smells, fully disinfect to totally remove anything the snake can pick up and show the snake will still go straight to tube 3 using vision and as all tubes are identical proof that memory has played a part.
It still presents control issues if for instance the royal been used went into shed or you accidentally bump its nose on the way, time of day, controlled and unchanging environment between experiment runs. |
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Edited by - Lotabob on 27/04/2011 22:36:12 |
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Welly
Yearling
United Kingdom
423 Posts |
Posted - 27/04/2011 : 23:26:33
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The problem with your tests so far is they are sense related.
However, in my opinion i would say yes they do.
The reason i say this is because with mine if she wants to come out she comes to the left hand side of the viv and she knows that i can see the left hand side from the sofa. She never goes to the right.
She also knows that when she can smell rats she sits in her high log hide. That way she is easier to feed and gets it quicker.
Just my opinion. Proving is a different story |
0.1.0 Royal Python
0.0.1 Mexican Black King
1.0.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 28/04/2011 : 00:16:02
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| Yeah I agree if I were to guess the outcome I'd say they definitely have memory to some degree, the fact that some snakes learn to associate viv doors opening with food is one way to show it :) |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
Posted - 28/04/2011 : 03:03:02
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The sensory is not a problem. It's a controlled variable. Because the sensory is the same for all trials.
When you have walls that you have to go around to get to the place your senses tell you to go, it becomes a memory indicator... because you can count how many erroneous turns the snake goes through before getting to the target. The hypotheses is - the more he goes through the maze, with his senses as his impetus for movement, the lesser error he makes indicating memory recall.
Right?
So, the challenge is to make sure the sensory impetus does not change throughout the entire experiment - not that it doesn't exist. |
Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
Edited by - anatess on 28/04/2011 03:04:24 |
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Robert
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
957 Posts |
Posted - 28/04/2011 : 19:15:40
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| Royals certainly do have a memory, my female pastel bit my partner after she tried to remove some retained skin and a few days later whilst I was holding her and she was perfectly fine my partner took hold of her and was bitten again! and yet after being handed back she was perfectly fine with me, obviously she recognised my partners scent and remembered being uncomfortable when he was removing the retained shed |
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stevethornley
Hatchling
United Kingdom
69 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 21:38:10
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What an intriguing puzzle!
A mixture of Kelfezond's and Strawb's idea would be a good starting point, I reckon. You have to take food out of the equation me thinks because of the smell/timescale/stress issues.
4 tubes side-by-side with a warm hide at the end of one of them. Construct the other 3 tubes so that it's possible for snakey to turn around in and find another warmer spot. See how long it takes to find the warm hide. If the time gets shorter, it would suggest that snakey 'remembers' where the hot hide is and I would say that you have proved your hypothesis.
Good luck. Would love to know how you get on!
Steve |
0.1.0 Royal Python - Kate
0.1.0 Beagle - Poppy
0.0.11 tiny tropical fish - not named |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 22:25:20
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| Only problem is that if snakes were as black and white as "There is heat I'm going towards it" we wouldn't need locks on our vivs :P My royal Anubis escaped the other day to the coldest part of my room, what will you do if they just don't take notice of your heat lures? |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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stevethornley
Hatchling
United Kingdom
69 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 20:48:33
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I'm sure you're right Kelfezond but if the trial was repeated enough times with enough different snakes, wouldn't the existance of some sort of pattern be good enough to weed out the bloody-minded/absent-minded ones?
Can't think of any other way of doing it given the issues with using food as the 'bait'.
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0.1.0 Royal Python - Kate
0.1.0 Beagle - Poppy
0.0.11 tiny tropical fish - not named |
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 21:03:59
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I'm also certain snakes have a memory, or at least become accustomed to routine; Shahi used to feed in a rub but since resuming feeding after his fast, has chosen to feed from his climbing branch:
Lil goes in, lifts cold hide off Shahi, picks up Shahi, who gets on to his branch, and by the time the kitchen paper 'tablecloth' is down and the rat on the tongs, Shahi is ready to grab!
However, when it comes to organising snakes as laboratory rats ... I personally think snakes just aren't that daft ... sorry! |
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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 05:34:50
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Okay...
So, we figured out we didn't need any added impetus.
Put the snake in the middle of the living room with bright light and the TV blaring, he wants to get out of there...
So, we created a simple T-maze. Put the snake on the bottom of the T, then he figures out if he wants to turn left or right. We put the hole on one T-arm and he went looking for it...
We haven't run the experiment yet because we only made the T-maze out of temporary material. We'll let you know how it all turned out.
But, we do have another experiment ready in case that thing doesn't work...
We have a 160g hognose (keeled scale) and a 150-ish baby ball python (smooth scale) we can borrow from the reptile shop. We're going to put both of them on 4 surfaces - Corkboard, Plywood, Tile, and Mirror. Then we're going to tilt the surface at an angle until the snake slides off. We're going to compare the keeled versus the smooth scales on different surfaces and jot down what angle the surface is on when the snake slides off. See if there's a difference between keeled and smooth scales when it comes to gripping the surface and also see if the type of surface would cause a difference.
How about that? |
Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
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Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
5008 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 18:03:18
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| Ventral scales arent keeled as far as I'm aware they are flat, smooth and are angled by mucsles to achieve grip, the keel of a scale is for camoflage and armour. Someone correct me though if I'm wrong. |
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maria52
Snake Mite
South Africa
1 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2012 : 21:02:22
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| Cool experiment! My kids also found some really nice science experiment ideas on www.experiland.com |
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Can you help me with my kid's science project?
