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JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!

United Kingdom
2279 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2012 : 17:16:36

I am just posting my colours for the Mousers debate team

Quotes
Statements
My Speech

Peoples Of Middle Earth:
Bert (Staffy) , named after Tolkien's stone Troll
Popeye, African Grey
Gimli (Son Of Gloin), Baby Beardie
Slinky, Baby Royal Python
Fëanor..Baby Mexican Common Boa
Casper 2011 Male Ghost Corn Snake **RIP**
Hoard of Orcs (Dubia Roach Colony)
Pearl & Ivory--African Giant Albino Land Snails
Ra, Taiwanese Beauty Snake
Henry, Western Hognose *Missing*
Pippin, Coastal X Diamond Carpet Python
Elanor, Pastel Royal
Timmy, Western Hognose
Flake, Calico male royal, Eowyn, Arabesque Boa

GMac
Grumpy scots admin

United Kingdom
1152 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2012 : 20:18:37

Can I also add if you are quoting from websites, please make sure the content is not copyrighted and that you add original author and link to the location please.

Royals, Corns, Boa, Kings, Hoggy, Ratsnakes

JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!

United Kingdom
2279 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2012 : 21:22:38

Will do Gmac :)

JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!

United Kingdom
2279 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2012 : 21:22:55

Team Mousers
Janie
Open

Introduction

Greetings to all on this fine day,

Firstly I would like to thank our esteemed judge Gmac for agreeing to reside over this debate.

The topic is Rats are better fed to Royals than mice whether or not you agree, it promises a lively discussion, and hopefully give advice for those unsure as to what is best to feed to their Royal, although it also stands true for other snakes such as Corns and Boas to name but two.
This is the first full debate on this forum, I hope others will follow, although it must be said that I already have a headache trying to gather together folk to join in!

There are very few things in my life that brings me more pleasure than Slinky our Royal or Feanor the Boa..he has many pet names, the latest being “Furby” I am quite sure that I’m not alone in thinking this. So I am delighted to be able to research and speak about them here and now and share all the information gathered with you.

I am not trying to say that Rats should never be fed to our snakes, as I fully intend on making the switchover myself when my two reach 1yr, the reasoning behind that statement shall unfold as the debate matures. I do however believe that Rats are not best fed to snakes until they reach that one year milestone, and between my team mate and myself we shall endeavour to show the dangers and problems that feeding rats too soon can and do cause.

We shall cover topics such as Nutrition, Health, Availability, and briefly discuss Live feeding over the following days and duration of this debate.

Of course our opponents will be attempting to dispel our views to tell you that rats are the far superior feed for all snakes, of all ages and to reach that goal I bid them good luck however misguided . *chuckles*

On that note I shall pass over to the first speaker for the Rat Team, who is eagerly waiting to make their introductions.
Thank you for listening.

Deadline for the Rat’s Introduction 11th

austin_89
Fully Grown Royal

United Kingdom
1248 Posts

Posted - 16/03/2012 : 19:21:35

INTRODUCTION

Hi all,

Me and the team, consisting of, me, Kelfezond, Anatess and Smiffy89, if they are still participating, are here to debate that rats are better for royals to eat than mice although were not saying that from a hatchling a royal (or any other snake) should be fed rats but that as soon as they're big enough they should be switched over, we will cover the reasons why during the debate

Janie as already explained what subjects we will be covering and the rules, deadlines, judges, ETC...

Wishing the best of luck to Janie

Thanks for reading, enjoy

1.1.0 Normal Royal Pythons... Kane (CF11) + Frankie (CB11)
1.0.0 Spider Royal Python (CB13)
1.0.0 100% het kahl albino boa Dexter (CB13)
1.0.0 Butter Corn...
0.1.0 Snow Corn... Alice
0.1.0 Red Harlequin Crested Gecko... Charlie
0.1.0 Albino Leopard Gecko... Cleo
1.1.0 African Green Mantis
1.0.0 Staffy... Alfie
1.1.0 Cats... Ebony and DK

JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!

United Kingdom
2279 Posts

Posted - 18/03/2012 : 21:39:55

Team Mousers

Debate post #1

Greetings to you all,

In this speech I shall be speaking of the health, and risks involved.

It’s a little like entering a maze to speak about which is the better feed, Mice or Rats, as there is very little factual evidence to support either. I did however discover some serious health issues regarding feeding rats, supporting my view that NO, rats are not better to feed than the mouse.

Health:

If you take a look in any thread on this and other forums regarding feeding Royals you will find that most replies consist of advice to feed rats as soon as possible, and that the snake will take a huge increase in size, but that isn’t strictly true. Every animal has a growth rate, you don’t grow taller just because you eat more, you get wider. To prove this I offer the following quote:

Reptiles, like all animals, can only grow so fast. When fed past this point, they can only lay down the excess food as fat deposits.
http://currumbinvetservices.com.au/reptiles.htm

And the following quote speaks about the fashion of feeding rats:

Over the last three years (since pet stores in Queensland began selling reptiles) I have noticed a major trend towards feeding rats to all and any snakes. This is usually totally inappropriate and a case of massive overfeeding.
http://currumbinvetservices.com.au/reptiles.htm

While the above quotation is discussing feeding in America, the same pattern is apparent here in the U.K. I would say that 90% of the average Royal keeper over here are feeding rats believing that the snake require that extra bulk, when if the truth were known they are causing possible harm.
Those still feeding mice, such as myself are advised to upgrade to rats by, in my opinion, poor, but well meaning advice. Which leads nicely to one quote in particular that I found amusing but true at the same time:

It is very poor husbandry to feed rats to commonly kept pythons and similar to “Do you want to upgrade and do you want fries with that?”www.angelfire.com/nt/electricmessiah/feeding.htmlCached

Obesity in snakes must be avoided as it puts unnecessary strain on all the major organs, as in humans which can cause death. Another problem is ‘Pinhead Syndrome’ a complaint that is caused by Power Feeding, when the snake owner feeds their animal with the intent of having to bulk up quickly so that breeding weight is achieved as swiftly as possible. Sometimes of course this rapid expansion in size is caused by ignorance to the risks. Rats are known to put weight onto a snake, as these quotes have displayed. Allow me to show another quote to back my theory:

In fact, over feeding (often called “power feeding”) to grow them up quickly – results in a large, unhealthy, overweight snake with a noticeably smaller head – Pin Head Syndrome.
www.angelfire.com/nt/electricmessiah/feeding.htmlCached

It is widely believed among the general snake keeping population that to see their snake gaining girth is good. I also see it said quite frequently that “Royals are a chunky snake” usually quite a young Python, and encouragement along with congratulations that the animal is eating weaned rats as an example, is given.
What concerns me when I read such replies to new keeper questions is that the snake’s length is rarely asked before handing out the advice to feed rats. Now, most but by no means all new keepers would take that advice as gospel, and so is born the next generation of folk that swear by feeding rats without being made aware of the health issues, of which the number is worryingly high.
For a growing snake, the quote given below is important, obviously for an adult, fully grown Royal once full size just weight and girth measurements to monitor any weight gain or loss.

I advise owners to measure the snake’s snout to vent (cloacae) length – use a piece of string/bootlace and measure this with a tape measure. At the same time check the snake’s weight on some digital gram scales.
A snake putting on weight without any appreciable increase in length is getting fat!
It is important not to overfeed a Boa or Python. Overfeeding will lead to regurgitation, obesity, and possibly Death
www.angelfire.com/nt/electricmessiah/feeding.htmlCached

Constipation and Blockages

So I have explained how premature feeding of rats can cause obesity, but there is another danger to be aware of: Fur.
If you keep or have kept pet rats you will know that they are quite furry, their hair is a lot courser and longer than that found on a mouse which tend to be sleek coated.

Rats also cause other problems – their fur is thicker, longer and coarser than mice fur. I am frequently presented with severely constipated snakes – usually fat and blocked up with massive plugs of rat fur.
http//currumbinvetservices.com.au/reptiles.htm

The quotations I offered were written by a herpetologist in snake health and welfare. I have been given the same advice from Triple 8 reptiles, when I called their order hotline to purchase a pack of weaned rats, but he instantly advised me to retain my Royal and Boa on mice until they had been well established on Jumbo mice, at around one year of age. Which is surprising, especially when you consider the price drop of selling me mice instead.
My own vet who has specialised in snake health, and keeps snakes himself for the past two decades gave the exact same advice, so I chose to listen to the professional reptile experts.

Keeping snakes as pets is becoming increasingly popular, indeed there are quite a lot of posts on this forum of new keepers asking advice on how to feed their new baby Royal. More often than not the response is a blanket reply advising rats from the start, so my goal is to provide a researched post that points out the risks involved and to allow the reader an informed choice.
My Royal Python is 6 months old now, and he shall remain on mice until a year is reached, I am providing a diet rich in calcium and protein but without the fat content, he is growing nicely without getting fat, he defecates weekly and is content. As a Royal keeper there is nothing more that I could hope to achieve for Slinky.

I had intended to cover the Nutritional facts in this speech, but alas that shall have to be covered that in our second argument, as this speech has already grown faster than a Royal on steroids!

So lastly, before I hand over to my opponents who support feeding Rats all I ask my listeners, is to be aware of the dangers and feed wisely.
I will be the next speaker on behalf the Mousers team, so you really do not want to be missing what promises to be compelling insight as to why mice are better fed to snakes!

anatess
Sub Adult

USA
669 Posts

Posted - 19/03/2012 : 03:06:30

Janie...

I think you jumped the gun.

We're the affirmative, you're the negative, so we get to present the first constructive speech.

Austin's was only an Introduction, not a constructive speech, so... I think we got switched.

So, can we have a clarification on what the sequence of speeches is going to be now?

My understanding (well, the way it was done in my high school... uhm, eons ago... yes, I'm THAT old. LOL.) is that the constructive speeches start off with the affirmative, alternating with the negative so that the negative ends up doing the last constructive speech. Then when we go to the rebuttal section where the negative starts it off, alternating with the affirmative which then makes the affirmative the last rebuttal.

Okay, so... how should this go now?

Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose

JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!

United Kingdom
2279 Posts

Posted - 19/03/2012 : 07:25:37

Anatess, I didn't jump the gun..I posted before the deadline as I won't be here later. Also I am posting negative given the topic :)

Here is the schedule:

09/03/2012 Opening Statement (Mousers..Janie) POSTED
16/03/2012 Opening Statement 11pm (The Rat Bags..Austin POSTED
19/03 Opening Argument 11pm (Janie)POSTED
21/03 Opening Argument 11pm (Ana)POSTED
23/03 2nd Argument 11pm (Janie)POSTED
25/03 2nd Argument 11pm (?)
27/03 1st Rebuttal 11pm (Janie)
29/03 1st Rebuttal ?11pm (Kelf)
31/03 Final Rebuttal and Closing Statement 11pm (Janie)
02/04 Final Rebuttal and Closing Statement 11pm ?
11pm on any given deadline is just that..the deadline and here

Edited by - JanieW on 25/03/2012 09:20:28

Kelfezond
The bearded one

United Kingdom
4803 Posts

Posted - 21/03/2012 : 21:22:28

Just to let you know I'm happy to do the first rebuttal might want to add it to the date

\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/

JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!

United Kingdom
2279 Posts

Posted - 21/03/2012 : 21:44:23

I edited you in Kelf :)

JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!

United Kingdom
2279 Posts

Posted - 21/03/2012 : 23:11:19

Alright, the deadline has passed, but no you need to let me know whether you wish to substitute Ana or give another chance..

1 - 59 mins late 10% deduction
1 - 24hrs 15% deduction
24-48 another 10%
49hrs and the post will be scratched

You can pull in a substitute debater if you know you are going to have difficulties, but request for a sub has to be posted within the deadline.

austin_89
Fully Grown Royal

United Kingdom
1248 Posts

Posted - 21/03/2012 : 23:21:23

I'll give her chance cause she seemed keen to post first argument and rebuttal

anatess
Sub Adult

USA
669 Posts

Posted - 22/03/2012 : 01:17:00

Whoa... there's UK time and there's US time...

I just got off work...

JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!

United Kingdom
2279 Posts

Posted - 22/03/2012 : 01:21:23

I forgot to add GMT..ok Ana as soon as you can ,that was my fault

anatess
Sub Adult

USA
669 Posts

Posted - 22/03/2012 : 05:08:50

Team Rat

Constructive Argument #1:

The royal python has been steadily gaining popularity in the pet trade. As our knowledge of the royal python's native environment and behaviors increase, the more we desire to provide our pets with the best possible environment in our own homes that closely resemble their native habitat. As royal python enthusiasts, one of our first concerns is our pet's dietary requirement. Studying the native prey of a royal python supports my view that rats are the best food to feed your pet royal python.

But before I present my contentions, I would like to present some definitions.

Definition #1:
The royal python, also called regal python or ball python, refers to the python regius species placed in the subfamily Pythoninae, within the family Boidae, in the order Squamata and the class Reptilia. Royal pythons range from Senegal to Togo in west Africa, and eastward to the Nile River in southern Sudan.
http://www.zoo.org/page.aspx?pid=403

Definition #2:
Rats are any rattus species in subfamily murinae, within the family muridae, in the order Rodentia. Also included in this classification is the mastomys natalus of the same subfamily, commonly called African Soft-fur Rat or African rat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat
http://www.rcreptiles.com/blog/index.php/2007/05/14/meet_the_african_soft_furred_rat

Definition #3:
We specifically define "better" as that which provides for a more superior overall health and well-being of the pet royal python as well as provides for the humane treatment of the prey and its population.

Native Prey

I therefore contend that rats are better fed to royals than mice for the main reason that rats are one of the royal python's native prey animal and is then closer to their native diet than mice.
http://www.zoo.org/page.aspx?pid=403 (refer to the section under Diet)

Royal pythons in the wild hunt down African rats in their burrows and then use those burrows as a safe haven as they digest. With all the choices of prey items in West Africa, wild royal pythons choose to prey on African rats. This clearly indicates that an African rat is of the proper nutritional content required by the natural healthy growth of a royal python.

This natural preference to African rats has been clearly documented by royal python breeders. Sapphiretigress.com states this for feeding snakes:

"The wild caught ball pythons are most receptive to eating soft furs, an African native food source." http://www.sapphiretigress.com/Softfurs.htm

Turning Fork Reptiles states:
"In the never ending search for information and practices which improve the way we care for our animals we decided to experiment with African soft fur rats (ASF'S) as a prey item for our ball pythons. We were so impressed with the results that we set up a whole room dedicated to breeding these interesting (an apparently delicious) rodents."
http://www.tuningforkreptile.com/caresheets/africansoftfurrats.html

Prey Preference for a Picky Eater

As we all know, royal pythons are classified as a moderately challenging exotic pet to keep. This is different than, say, a corn snake, that are classified as a beginner pet. The main reason for this classification is the very common challenge of a prey refusal. Royal pythons are very sensitive to changes in its environment and it is a common response for royals to refuse food. A wild-caught royal, for example, can refuse a feed for months at a time. It is also common for a baby snake fresh out of the egg, even one from captive-bred parents to refuse to eat for several weeks past the expected age of first feed.

These challenges can be mitigated when the African Rat - it's natural prey item - is chosen as their food. Most American Breeders have a colony of African rats to feed wild-caught royal pythons or neonates that refuse the common rat. They get the royals healthy and settled before trying to switch them to the common rat which is more widely available and cheaper than the African rat.

Prey Size

More importantly, it can be a challenge to change what a royal python's prey item is after it imprints on a specific item. A royal goes through a period of stress as it seeks out its prey. The African rat is one of the royal python's native prey item because of the appropriateness of its size. At an adult size of 60-80grams, it is much larger than a mouse and about the size of a medium rat. It is established as a rule of thumb in the royal python community that an appropriate sized prey for a royal python under 1kg in size is 10-15% of its body weight. According to the royal python growth chart, the royal python reaches 200grams at about 5 months of age, 400grams at about 10 months, 800grams at about a year and 1kg in about 18 months.
http://theroyalpython.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4437

The largest mouse available for sale at a feed store is around the 40gram mark. http://www.frozenfeeder.com/sizing.html. This means that by the time a royal python is 10 months old, it will have to either feed off of multiple mice or switch to rats. Feeding multiple prey items to a royal python in one sitting can be stressful to the snake. This is usually done by letting the snake eat the first prey item and before he finishes, another prey item is positioned right behind the other causing the snake to continue to swallow the next item before it repositions its jaw. A snake is at its most vulnerable when he is eating. Disturbing a feeding snake to introduce another prey item could risk a regurge. Also, feeding multiple prey items in one sitting can easily lead to power-feeding - where a royal python consumes more food than is appropriate - because the decision on whether the food is too much is taken out of the snake's hands and into the owner's. Feeding multiple prey items by encouraging multiple strikes is not as successful because a royal is a finicky eater and more than likely will refuse the second item. Therefore, most royal python owners and breeders feed their royals rats, even from birth, to eliminate the risk of having to multi-feed or to have to switch later to the more appropriate-sized rat.

Ron Crawford, a renowned royal python breeder expressed this about his decision to change his shop from mice to rats:
"The reason why I'm going to try to switch my mouse feeders to Soft Furred Rats is due to the size of the Soft Furred Rat compared to a mouse. I have some adult females that will easily feed on eight or better mice in one feeding. Raising eight mice requires a large amount of time and energy because it takes some time for baby mice to grow into adulthood. Soft African Rats on the other hand are much larger so one or two should be sufficient per feeding. My ultimate goal is to switch the mouse feeders to African Soft Furred Rats and then switch them to domestic rats. The same logic applies here as well, domestic rats are much larger than Soft African Rats so one rat is quite sufficient for the same ball python per feeding."
http://www.rcreptiles.com/blog/index.php/2007/05/14/meet_the_african_soft_furred_rat br /

The smallest rat available in stores is the pinky rat that weighs around the 5gram mark. This size is a perfect prey item for a neonate royal python as a baby royal averages at around 50grams at birth. So that, a royal python can be fed its proper prey item - the rat - from birth all the way to adulthood.

Just from these contentions on this first argument, it is already clear to see that rats are vastly superior to mice as the proper food item for a pet royal python.

Edited by - anatess on 22/03/2012 05:12:27

JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!

United Kingdom
2279 Posts

Posted - 23/03/2012 : 14:50:43

Team Mousers

Second Argument Rats are better fed to Royals than mice

Hi Folks,

I previously discussed with you the health concerns involved with feeding rats to snakes prematurely , calling on the expertise of herpetologists and professional snake breeders to add factual evidence to my argument.
In this, the second and final argument in favour of feeding mice in preference to rats, I shall endeavour to point out the nutritional values of both species and the ultimate shortfall of rats.

Much as I dislike large sections of copied text in my debates, on this occasion, due to scientific data I had no other option available to convey the researched information I uncovered.

Firstly allow me to point you to a comprehensive breakdown on the dietary requirements for a Royal:

Explanation of the components

1 - Since all animals need water, the moisture in food is an important source of water. Older feeder animals generally contain less moisture than younger feeder animals.
2 - Proteins are the building blocks of muscle and other tissues. Proteins (and carbohydrates) each contain about 4.0 kcal/g of Metabolizable Energy.
3 - Dietary fat helps in the absorption of vitamins A, D and E, and is a concentrated source of energy (about 9.0 kcal/g of Metabolizable Energy). Animals metabolize fat at a much higher
rate than do humans.
4 - Vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin that is required for healthy skin, mucous membranes, the retina of the eye, muscles, teeth and other tissues. Vitamin A deficiency is probably the
second most common contributor to premature reptile and amphibian death.
5 - Reptiles need Vitamin D3 in order to metabolize calcium. Vitamin D3 is acquired through the sun’s rays, through proper UVB lighting and/or through supplementation. It is interesting
to note that chameleons that are fed crickets gut-loaded with this vitamin will spend less time basking.
6 - This fat soluble vitamin is an important anti-oxidant and is essential for proper cell function. As with the other vitamins, there is no scientifically-supported recommended level for this
vitamin in the diet of reptiles and amphibians. At this point, it is educated guess-work taken from other species.
7 - Proper Calcium levels are important for bone and tooth growth, heart health and proper metabolic functioning. Calcium deficiency is one of the leading causes of Metabolic Bone
Disease and probably the leading cause of premature reptile and amphibian death.
8 - Phosphorous is a chemical element that, combined with Calcium, forms the majority of bone in the body and it is used in nearly all the body‘s metabolic processes. Too much
phosphorous can inhibit the absorption of calcium. Generally speaking, reptiles need a calcium to phosphorous ratio of between 1:1 and 2:1.
9 - Metabolizable Energy (ME) is a combination of the gross energy of the feeder animal + how digestible it is + a factor for metabolizing the nutrients it contains. To illustrate the
importance of ME, a 450 gram bearded dragon will need approximately 10.8 kcal/g of energy per day, and a 1200 gram ball python will need approximately 25.8 kcal/g of energy
per day.
www.house-of-reptiles.com/feedervertebrates.pdf

I was delighted when I stumbled across the previous information, all the nutritional charts I have seen never tell me what vitamins actually do nutritionally.
Now I shall move on to show two charts of nutrition in mice and then rats:

Nutritional Comparisons between mice and rats

Domestic Mouse (Adult, >10g)
Moisture 1.……………………………...........................67.3
Protein 2.……………………………............................18.2
Fat 3 ………………………………......................... .. .7.7
Vitamin A 4 IU/kg)…………………………….............189,095
Vitamin E 6.…………………………….........................33(IU/kg)
Calcium 7 ………………………………............... ........0.97
Phosphorous 8.……………………………...................0.56
Metabolizable Energy 9.(kcal/g)……………………….1.42
www.house-of-reptiles.com/feedervertebrates.pdf

Rat (juvenile, 10-50g)
Moisture 1.……………………………...........................70.1
Protein 2.……………………………............................16.8
Fat 3 ………………………………......................... .. .8.3
Vitamin A 4 IU/kg)…………………………….............N/A
Vitamin E 6.…………………………….........................N/A
Calcium 7 ………………………………............... ........0.62
Phosphorous 8.……………………………...................N/A
Metabolizable Energy 9.(kcal/g)…………………… ..1.42

Data Sources
Dierenfeld, Alcorn and Jacobsen, 2002. Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey (Excluding Fish) Fed in Zoos. AZA, Nutrition Advisory Group Handbook, 14. Finke, 2002. Energetics of Free-
Ranging Mammals, Reptiles and Birds. Annual Review of Nutrition 19:247-278.

www.house-of-reptiles.com/feedervertebrates.pdf

Feel free to read those two charts, but now I shall break it down to further explain and prove that mice are the superior feeder for snakes up to one year.

Vitamin A is responsible for healthy eyes, bone besides other tissues, deficiency of this vitamin is responsible for premature death of snakes. You will notice from the charts that mice provide 189,095, whilst juvenile rats recorded N/A, only the adult rat and neonatal had values of 51.321 & 4.437 respectively, both substantially lower than an adult mouse.

Calcium is vital, it ensures healthy bone growth, heart and metabolism. Deficiency of Calcium is the major cause of death.
Calcium in an adult mouse is .35 higher than what an equivalent size rat provides, higher too than an adult rat which only has 0.89 while an adult mouse is 0.97

From the facts I presented to you, you can see for yourself that feeding mice provide more vital nutrients than rats.

Above I have shown the nutritional aspects of feeding, but what does a Royal eat its native habitat?
Well let me give you the answer.

Natural Royal Food

In the wild, their diet consists mostly of small mammals, such as African soft-furred rats, shrews and striped mice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_regius

African Soft Furred Rat

The Multimammate Rat appears to be a connecting link between the true mice and rats, though it shows slightly more affinity to the rats than it does to the mice. Since no one can be quite sure about its relationship to other members of the Muridae, it has been alternatively classified at various times within the genus Mus (the true mice)
http://www.rcreptiles.com

We feed the domestic mouse and rat, neither are wild not even here in the United Kingdom. Domestic rats otherwise known as The Fancy Rat are what we feed either frozen or live.
Then we have The Fancy Mouse , again popular pets, but I suspect that the mice we feed are laboratory mice.
This part has no real bearing on this debate, other than to prove that whichever we feed to our Royal, either mouse or rat, neither are their natural diet.

Availabity

I will not dwell on this topic for long, as I really have no wish to bring any frozen rodent supplier into a poorer light.
I can say however that while researching I made a few calls to suppliers and in two, weaner rats were not available.
Mice of all stages are always ready for delivery.

Closing Statement

I am going to close this final argument on behalf of the Mousers, I have covered Health and Nutritional Values in depth and briefly discussed the natural food stuffs and Availability.
If you are an avid feeder of rats, I am neither asking or expecting you to change, but I am hoping that you read this debate and better understand the needs of our beloved snakes. I know I learned a lot whilst researching.

So now allow me to hand you back to Team Rats, I shall be following closely for I am open to new ideas .

Thanks for listening

JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!

United Kingdom
2279 Posts

Posted - 27/03/2012 : 23:35:24

Team Mousers

First Rebuttal~~Rats are better fed to Royals than mice

Opponents Rebutted Claims..Orange
My Quotes..Purple

Greetings fellow snake enthusiasts,
This is the part of the proceedings that is the favourite of many, as now we highlight and explain the false claims, and any inconsistencies in the points made by the opposing team.
On this occasion Anatess has my full attention, and on that note let us proceed. It must be said before I begin my rebuttal, that she wrote with style, and her passion simply leapt from the page while I read, it was beautifully written.

Native Prey

Royal pythons in the wild hunt down African rats in their burrows and then use those burrows as a safe haven as they digest. With all the choices of prey items in West Africa, wild royal pythons choose to prey on African rats. This clearly indicates that an African rat is of the proper nutritional content required by the natural healthy growth of a royal python.
Originally posted by Anatess

That statement is misleading and and has no bearing on this debate whatsoever, why? You might ask, well follow as I explain.

The name most of you will be more familiar with is the Multimammate..or multis. It is a completely separate feeding option that very few offer to Royals for a couple of reasons:
Firstly they are not broadly available from suppliers
Secondly they are far more expensive.
Anatess is trying to have you believe that an African Rat is a genuine rat, but that is blatantly untrue as you will soon see for yourself.

The name African Rat or African Soft Furred are not a scientific titles, and the latter was given for one reason only, its fur:

It possesses long, soft, silky fur, hence its alternative name of Soft-furred Rat.
http://www.rcreptiles.com/blog/index.php/2007/05/14/meet_the_african_soft_furred_rat

I shall now point out, and prove that an African Soft Furred is not only not a rat, it isn’t even related to a rat !

The Multimammate Rat appears to be a connecting link between the true mice and rats, though it shows slightly more affinity to the rats than it does to the mice. Since no one can be quite sure about its relationship to other members of the Muridae, it has been alternatively classified at various times within the genus Mus (the true mice), Rattus (the true rats) – although it shares features of both genera, latest research shows that it is not directly related to either –http://www.rcreptiles.com/blog/index.php/2007/05/14/meet_the_african_soft_furred_rat

Now I shall move on to Anatess’ next section;

Prey Preference for a Picky Eater

These challenges can be mitigated when the African Rat - it's natural prey item - is chosen as their food. Most American Breeders have a colony of African rats to feed wild-caught royal pythons or neonates that refuse the common rat. They get the royals healthy and settled before trying to switch them to the common rat which is more widely available and cheaper than the African rat.http://www.theroyalpython.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8475

That statement shows a critical flaw as it shows that the two are not related by suggesting that breeders keep African Rats for if a snake refuses a common rat.

The term common rat simply refers to The Brown Rat:
The brown rat, common rat, sewer rat, Hanover rat, Norway rat, brown Norway rat, Norwegian rat, or wharf rat (Rattus norvegicus) is one of the best known and most common rats.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_rat

Now you are probably thinking ‘well we don’t feed wild rats and definately not sewer rats!’
Indeed we don’t, we feed the Fancy Rat, a domesticated brown rat.
The fancy rat is a domesticated brown rat (Rattus norvegicus), which is the most common type of pet rat.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fancy_rat

That is why many frozen rats are various colour variations such as: hooded rat, white, grey, tan. All the colours you can buy at the pet shops are fancy rats or as we better know them..pet rats.

Now let’s return to the body of this topic, yes some do feed Multimammates also known as African Soft Furred Rats, and yes there is some evidence that they can tempt a picky eater, but since they are NOT even related to rats it really is a mute point.
This debate has a set theme ‘Rats are better fed to Royals than mice’ , not multis, hamsters or gerbils, just rats.

The final point that Anatess covered was Prey size, I have undoubtedly brought to your attention the faults up to this point, so time to move on.

Prey Size

I follow most of the threads, especially when somebody takes a new Royal home, many are young snakes of just a few months of age or neonates.
It is these that require a nutritious diet, a diet that is rich in Protein, Calcium and Vitamin A, it is three in particular essential for good health and healthy growth for the young snakes.
I covered the nutrional values in a straight comparison in my second argument, so I will not repeat all my earlier writings, except Fuzzy Rats and Small Mice. Firstly I wish to comment on the last statement that Anatess posted:

The smallest rat available in stores is the pinky rat that weighs around the 5gram mark. This size is a perfect prey item for a neonate royal python as a baby royal averages at around 50grams at birth. So that, a royal python can be fed its proper prey item - the rat - from birth all the way to adulthood.
Originally posted by Anatess

While it might be true of the physical size, I would not recommend this diet for the following reason

Fuzzy Rat
Protein..16.8--Calcium..0.62--Vitamin A..N/A
Small Mouse
Protein..18.2--Calcium..0.97--Vitamin A..189,095www.house-of-reptiles.com/feedervertebrates.pdf

A small mouse is of comparable size to a fuzzy rat, but as you can see the nutritional value is far greater.

I believe I have covered all the points on rats given by Anatess , the Multimammate just to give indisputable evidence that they are not classed as rats. Their name simply means ‘many breasted’.
The next post will likely be the first rebuttal for the Rats team, as I’m sorry to say misfortune struck and they failed to display their second argument.

JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!

United Kingdom
2279 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2012 : 00:25:43

Unfortunately the Rats team failed to post twice, and 48hrs past the deadline means the post is void anyway I'll close this debate.

Thanks for taking part and also for reading :)

Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator

United Kingdom
5008 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2012 : 14:55:13

There have been a few interesting points so thanks Janie, if anything it has shown another side to the feed rats blanket argument. I think it only fell flat because not everyone knows the ways of debate, me included.

Does this mean now that the TRP advice for feeding Royals is now to feed mice?

JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!

United Kingdom
2279 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2012 : 17:01:32

Thank you Rob :)

True enough, debate is an art and it takes alot of research making certain to get the facts right:)
On the Tolkien forum I used to write 4000 words, we all did and god help you to miss a deadline lol

I'm glad that it showed that mice can be better, and blanket feeding rats is not the best way to feed, age depending.
I hope now you can understand why I have my two on large mice as both are just 6 months old and even then Slinky is plump to say the least lol

Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator

United Kingdom
5008 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2012 : 19:34:48

Now I never said they were better lol. I've seen the effect switching has had on Sanke and I would also hate to have a snake hooked on a prey item not of a suitable size so I do think that nutritional information aside (as its entirely subjective and dependant on a lot of changeable factors that will vary wildly from one mouse/rat to the next) rats are a better option for Royals.

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