| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lotabob |
Posted - 19/09/2013 : 23:58:19
So you may or may not have heard but Brian Barczyk of BHB and Snakebyte TV fame has produced the first ever scaleless Royal Python (they say ball, I can't being myself to drop the royal)
Anyway staff at BHB have uploaded to Facebook a few photos of the now quite famous, yet to leave the egg snake but I think this one shows it best.
So guys what do you think? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| anatess |
Posted - 02/10/2013 : 16:27:01
I just realized there are 2 separate threads on this. Like I mentioned in the other thread...
Scaleless snakes has been in the reptile hobby for over 20 years. Scaleless snakes (more specifically scaleless Texas Ratsnakes and scaleless gopher snakes) have been found in the wild and studied. The Bronx Zoo had 2 scaleless Texas Ratsnakes back in the 80's. They were studied and researched and found that their lack of scales do not have negative impact on the snakes. Scaleless gopher snakes are found in the wild with different maturity levels and no observable difference in injury level as scaled gopher snakes, so not only do they not have any handicap, they can survive the wild.
Scaleless Texas Ratsnakes, Scaleless gopher snakes, and Scaleless Corn Snakes do still have beta-keratin layer (what makes scales) although it is very thin. The snake still sheds this layer. The underbelly has thicker beta-keratin and the snakes may have splotches of scales (like poppy seed buns, I guess). But, they have a significantly thicker alpha-keratin layer (skin), which may be why they don't show higher injury levels in the wild. The genetic trait is found to be simple recessive (like the albino trait in royals).
Scaleless Ratsnakes, gopher snakes, and corn snakes don't have any observable differences in hydration, thermoregulation, movement from their scaled counterparts. But because of the thin beta-keratin layer, the color patterns on the snake are more vivid.
So, all in all, in the case of Texas Ratsnakes, gopher snakes, and corn snakes, the lack of scales are just like a different color morph and does not adversely impact the snake.
Now, the fun part is trying to figure out if all these research applies to scaleless royals. That's what Brian is going to find out for us. He's been a pioneer in the Scaleless Texas Ratsnake some 20+ years ago descended from the Bronx Zoo animals and is a major contributor to its research.
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| anatess |
Posted - 02/10/2013 : 16:06:53
quote:
Originally posted by Kelfezond
quote:
Originally posted by anatess
To those saying these snakes shouldn't be proved out...
Do you all feel the same way about the English Bulldog? Because... It would sound really hypocritical if you don't.
I'm not one of the people saying that the gene shouldn't have been proved out, I'm always on the fence on these issues It's comfortable up here ^^
However on the Bulldog topic I had always disagreed with them being bred due to their difficult breathing it seemed cruel to me - however recently my American Bulldog has made friends with RichardV's english bulldog and after watching them play together I'm slowly beginning to change my mind, you can see he has trouble breathing and he gets tired out very, very quickly but by god he does keep trying! And you can tell immediately just from seeing them play together that he has a great quality of life despite his difficulties, things aren't always black and white unfortunately.
There is breeder responsibility involved in the makings of an English Bulldog. EBs fetch a high price in the US so it is a target for irresponsible breeders. The snub nose and thick skin and disproportional body poses a challenge to the breed. But this is not what makes EBs a sick dog just like the giant size of a mastiff is not what makes mastiffs a sick dog. It's indiscriminate breeding as well as ignorant owners that is the problem.
In the world of dog breeding - if your dog is not a good example of the breed, it needs to be neutered/spayed. This is what responsible breeders do. The contracts for purchasing these dogs from responsible breeders is quite specific - non-comforming dogs are sold fixed. Comforming dogs are sold with a breeding contract - that is, the breeder has say on who the dog gets to be paired with if they are to be bred. But, because of the price of the EBs, $-eyed nincompoops breed these guys in their backyard with all kinds of issues and they go to market.
This is the same thing for those whatever-poo dogs. These dogs are commanding high prices due to the claim of non-shedding, hypoallergenic dogs. But with these whatever-poos the genetic pairing is so varied and uncontrolled that it's a crap-shoot what genetic qualities the puppies get!
But, even with responsible breeding, certain dogs have certain requirements in care! So people have to research their dog before they bring it home. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't. They buy English Bulldogs and walk them around the neihborhood in the heat of Florida summer. Or they feed them crap dog food. Or they don't bother with proper hygiene required for the proper care of EBs so fungus grow in its skin folds, etc. etc.
By the way, I have 2 English Bulldogs in case you're wondering.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is - Brian Barczyk has been working on scaleless snakes for over 20 years, so if there's anybody who can figure out what these royals is going to require or if it's even a good snake to continue to breed, it's going to be him. All of us gets to benefit from his knowledge.
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| Kelfezond |
Posted - 02/10/2013 : 15:31:09
quote:
Originally posted by anatess
To those saying these snakes shouldn't be proved out...
Do you all feel the same way about the English Bulldog? Because... It would sound really hypocritical if you don't.
I'm not one of the people saying that the gene shouldn't have been proved out, I'm always on the fence on these issues It's comfortable up here ^^
However on the Bulldog topic I had always disagreed with them being bred due to their difficult breathing it seemed cruel to me - however recently my American Bulldog has made friends with RichardV's english bulldog and after watching them play together I'm slowly beginning to change my mind, you can see he has trouble breathing and he gets tired out very, very quickly but by god he does keep trying! And you can tell immediately just from seeing them play together that he has a great quality of life despite his difficulties, things aren't always black and white unfortunately. |
| boomslang |
Posted - 27/09/2013 : 16:04:08
quote:
Originally posted by anatess
To those saying these snakes shouldn't be proved out...
Do you all feel the same way about the English Bulldog? Because... It would sound really hypocritical if you don't.
there's afew breeds i wouldn't buy,I had one breed that used to have heart attacks alot when he got older,All due to the breed etc.
Same with the dogs that can barely breathe due to breeding,So i guess it does become questionable.
quote:
Mutation from humans is basically just a sped up process on evolution. There pushing for new limits. Regardless
well not really :P As no one could no how said animal would evolve over time.The world around you plays a key roll to remember :P |
| Pythonwizard |
Posted - 27/09/2013 : 15:41:02
go on the twitter of brain's and he posted a teaser pic (@SnakeBytesTV) |
| anatess |
Posted - 27/09/2013 : 03:37:38
For the record, I love Brian. My sons, then 9 and 7 year olds, got to see him at the Daytona Reptile Show. He had tons of people around his booth. And lots of people intending to buy. But he spent a long time listening to my sons explain to him how they were trying to breed their pastel to their spider and how they figured they might get bumblebees because of this gene pair , etc... Little kids thinking they're giving Brian Barczyk a genetic lesson! He said he was impressed with the passion my children have for their pets and he hopes every kid will have the same passion for animals.
That guy is the real deal.
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| anatess |
Posted - 27/09/2013 : 03:30:32
To those saying these snakes shouldn't be proved out...
Do you all feel the same way about the English Bulldog? Because... It would sound really hypocritical if you don't. |
| boomslang |
Posted - 24/09/2013 : 16:56:06
quote:
Originally posted by chrisc
i assume the pit's are still there inside but without the scale's there's nothing to form a solid edge/hole round them.
so it's removed something that has evolved over million's of year's to help them locate prey, granted not a huge issue with a captive animal but it's still breeding something with part's of it's genetic makeup missing
I think they look kinda cool :P But like most people,you're breeding out things that are meant to be there.it's kinda like breeding out the flatten tail on some water snakes.I don't no hehe,does it affect how the snake lives?Only time will tell right  |
| hodgie |
Posted - 20/09/2013 : 19:14:10
Not a fan of this |
| Foremand |
Posted - 20/09/2013 : 15:04:55
Would this scaleless idea stop mites? Being as mites hide under the scales? Could there be an advantage on this?
Crazy idea. But how far will people go to react sonething different? Mutation from humans is basically just a sped up process on evolution. There pushing for new limits. Regardless |
| Lotabob |
Posted - 20/09/2013 : 09:31:14
Scales on snakes at the end of the day are intricate folds of skin, so my take is the gene involved here just stops these folds from forming but the same skin is still there. Also as far as I know it was scaleless head to scaleless head and not dermaball involved, not sure how or if their genetic history is linked.
Personally I don't like scaleless being bred deliberately and many years down the line in high numbers, but all accounts are that they do just fine in captivity, it's not like they've been peeled, skin is still skin and provides protection (although is humans get foiled by the evil that is a piece of paper).
It will be an interesting new development in the snake keeping game I suppose but I'm sure it won't go down well with the god squad. |
| Fezza |
Posted - 20/09/2013 : 07:26:39
Congrats to BHB
It may not be to everyones taste but, at least someone is pushing the limits and it's got a lot of people talking and, talking about BHB!!
To my way of thinking this mutation is no different to any other. How long would an albino last in the wild??
In the interest of fairness, I'm not a fan of the scaleless but, I'd love to hold one just to see how it felt  |
| phlegmatical |
Posted - 20/09/2013 : 06:44:43
I don't like it for same reasons as Chris and johnny. But then I don't like the spider gene for obvious reasons either! |
| Kelfezond |
Posted - 20/09/2013 : 06:09:08
quote:
Originally posted by jonnyc1988
I wouldnt have thought it would ever be tough enough. They have scales for a reason. Mine has done some damage to its head before by going under the back of his hide. Would hate to think what that would have done to a scaleless snake.
They have scales to protect them from attack, while I'm sure it also helps navigate rough terrain without feet and legs - in a captive environment there's no reason the snake should be exposed to anything too rough.
This isn't the first scaleless snake in existence there are quite a lot of them around I've never seen anything to suggest they often get injured from their lack of scales.
I'll be reserving judgement on it myself until we know more. |
| jonnyc1988 |
Posted - 20/09/2013 : 06:02:01
I wouldnt have thought it would ever be tough enough. They have scales for a reason. Mine has done some damage to its head before by going under the back of his hide. Would hate to think what that would have done to a scaleless snake. |
| Kelfezond |
Posted - 20/09/2013 : 05:48:18
Do we know how tough the skin is? Obviously this newborn is soft but how about the older ones does the skin toughen up? |
| chrisc |
Posted - 20/09/2013 : 05:44:03
quote:
Originally posted by jonnyc1988
Will the scaleless royal still have ventral scales? I would have thought it would cut itself or get quite bad friction marks etc. from having no protection.
I really dont see the point, its ugly!!
the scaleless snake's do still have the ventral scale's it's just all the other one's that are missing.
that's one thing that would concern me a lot even crawling under a hide i would have thought could damage them |
| jonnyc1988 |
Posted - 20/09/2013 : 05:39:21
Will the scaleless royal still have ventral scales? I would have thought it would cut itself or get quite bad friction marks etc. from having no protection.
I really dont see the point, its ugly!! |
| chrisc |
Posted - 20/09/2013 : 05:34:34
i assume the pit's are still there inside but without the scale's there's nothing to form a solid edge/hole round them.
so it's removed something that has evolved over million's of year's to help them locate prey, granted not a huge issue with a captive animal but it's still breeding something with part's of it's genetic makeup missing |
| jonnyc1988 |
Posted - 20/09/2013 : 05:29:19
Huh!! Thats weird!!! |
