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nok1888
Yearling
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
 Posted - 18/09/2010 : 11:36:52
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Ive picked my viv its getting delivered next week, and said to them "will the heat mat be inside or outside the viv", Ive just had a reply saying....
"We do not recommend heat mats for heavy bodied snakes like Royals as they lay on them and because of there size they create hot spots on the heat mats which will slowly cook them causing burns"!!!
Frankly this has scared the sh..crap out of me! everywhere Ive read they say about using heat mats because the belly heat aids digestion.
The only thing I dont fancy about a ceramic bulb is that, you use a guard...the guards metal...does the lamp not heat the metal guard???
Also, im getting the 24" viv as its a 2010 im getting (im going to partition a part off so its not too big for him to start with) with the thought of moving up to the 36" in a few years when he'll apreciate a little more exploring room, but, they (same people as above) said its a myth that they "prefer small places because the jungle isnt small" so I should save myself money in the long term and just buy a 36 or 48" right off!? Im sure he cant be right suggesting a 48" viv for such a young snake
I just had a thought about using ceramic lamp will set up a basking area but you can leave it on 24hrs a day can you?
Sorry if i seem to be rambling, I thought I had everything sussed out on set up best for the snake and this has just rocked it all!!
(If theres another thread on this sorry about this one)
Can anyone give me advice please or point me to a website that specifically deals with heating do's n dont's
Thanks |
0.1.0 Royal Normal - Orlina Bodhi Lobsang
1.0.0 Royal Normal - Sedrick Rinzen Sonam
2.0.0 Cats 18 y/o - Monty, kitten - Dodger
2.0.0 Border Collie's 7 y/o - Jinky, 2 y/o - Chance
0.0.5 Goldfish - Haggis, Pookie, Oddball, Spongebob and Slimey (kids eh lol)
Strange creature, unknown species, wife likes to call it "teenage daughter"
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2010 : 11:50:51
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That's a very good website, its exactly the advice I would have given.
Yes you can use a red heat bulb or ceramic lamp 24/7. |
 
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2010 : 11:52:50
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I was a bit worried about the bulb heating the metal guard up as well but it's really not hot enough to do that, I can put my hand on the bulb while it's heating her viv and it won't really burn me that much so it's nowhere near hot enough to heat up a guard as long as the guard isn't in direct contact with it, which it shouldn't be. :)
I don't use a heat mat anymore though as I've heard from alot of people here who use a bulb, long as it's nice and warm in there at the right temperature my royal seems happy enough :) |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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Lettsy1
Yearling
United Kingdom
147 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2010 : 11:53:47
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| Hiya hun. A lot of ppl, me included, use heat mats when they are small, connected to a thermostat of course! Then as they get bigger, they use at bulb with a guard(again with a thermostat), I havent got my little one (a 2010) in a viv at the min, she is in a faun and the heat mat is on outside, not sure on heat mats inside vivs, have read on here some guys put the heat mat inside and put something over it like lino or slate so the snake cant come into direct contact with it. Royals do like small cramped spaces, it makes them feel secure,(the jungle may be big but it dont mean they go for a ramble! lol!) Hope that helps! |
1.1.0 Royal (Dash,Sheba & Ditto)
1.1.0 Western Hognose (Frank & Grace)
0.0.1 Snow Corn (Ghost) |
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nok1888
Yearling
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2010 : 12:52:15
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Thanks Kelfezond and Lettsy advice REALLY helped calm my mind a bit (i was a bit scrambled there for a while lol), I'll look into the ceramic bulbs. I was always worried about how to control the cool side and ambient air temp with just a mat but if the ceramic is the best way to go I'll do it that way, i was just scared of burning the snake.
Echo, do you mean that you agree with all I was told in my first post? |
0.1.0 Royal Normal - Orlina Bodhi Lobsang
1.0.0 Royal Normal - Sedrick Rinzen Sonam
2.0.0 Cats 18 y/o - Monty, kitten - Dodger
2.0.0 Border Collie's 7 y/o - Jinky, 2 y/o - Chance
0.0.5 Goldfish - Haggis, Pookie, Oddball, Spongebob and Slimey (kids eh lol)
Strange creature, unknown species, wife likes to call it "teenage daughter"
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nok1888
Yearling
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2010 : 13:09:05
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Since im here lol can you have a look at this checklist to see if ive missed something please
Viv, substrate (going to use kitchen roll to start with), hide x 2, water bowl, ceramic bulb, correct bulb holder, bulb guard, pulse thermostat,digital thermometer/hygrometer, feeding tongs
Is there anything else you think i need? |
0.1.0 Royal Normal - Orlina Bodhi Lobsang
1.0.0 Royal Normal - Sedrick Rinzen Sonam
2.0.0 Cats 18 y/o - Monty, kitten - Dodger
2.0.0 Border Collie's 7 y/o - Jinky, 2 y/o - Chance
0.0.5 Goldfish - Haggis, Pookie, Oddball, Spongebob and Slimey (kids eh lol)
Strange creature, unknown species, wife likes to call it "teenage daughter"
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2010 : 13:19:26
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| I'm not sure you'll be able to get a temperature gradient in a small viv with a bulb, as Lettsy says, heat mats are fine for hatchlings. |
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nok1888
Yearling
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2010 : 14:00:27
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| So do you think i should go with the 36" viv but put a little more stuff in it, couple of small branches, extra hide in the middle and some artificial plants etc to make it more full, and open it up as the wee man grows? Space isnt a problem i can go with a 36" if it will be good for the boy |
0.1.0 Royal Normal - Orlina Bodhi Lobsang
1.0.0 Royal Normal - Sedrick Rinzen Sonam
2.0.0 Cats 18 y/o - Monty, kitten - Dodger
2.0.0 Border Collie's 7 y/o - Jinky, 2 y/o - Chance
0.0.5 Goldfish - Haggis, Pookie, Oddball, Spongebob and Slimey (kids eh lol)
Strange creature, unknown species, wife likes to call it "teenage daughter"
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Snecklifter
Yearling
United Kingdom
144 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2010 : 14:22:59
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| I use a 24" x 18" x 18" viv and my snake is only 3 months old, therefore I use both a heat mat on a thermostat and a red bulb on a timer. Bulb is on during the day and the heat mat supplements the bulb if required, works pefectly. Their is plenty of hiding places and 'furnitre' in there for him and to be honest, it hasn't bothered him at all. |
0.0.1 Royal 'Trowzer' |
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2010 : 14:39:55
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No, I don't think a 3' viv is suitable for a hatchling Royal.
Personally I'd go with a RUB on a heat mat for a hatchling. |
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nok1888
Yearling
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2010 : 19:55:15
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| Going to go with Roly's set up, do you have a stat on the bulb m8 or is it not needed? Can you post the lamp set up, what i need to get. Im getting the 24" viv with an 11x11" mat with thermostat |
0.1.0 Royal Normal - Orlina Bodhi Lobsang
1.0.0 Royal Normal - Sedrick Rinzen Sonam
2.0.0 Cats 18 y/o - Monty, kitten - Dodger
2.0.0 Border Collie's 7 y/o - Jinky, 2 y/o - Chance
0.0.5 Goldfish - Haggis, Pookie, Oddball, Spongebob and Slimey (kids eh lol)
Strange creature, unknown species, wife likes to call it "teenage daughter"
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2010 : 20:31:49
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| Any heat source should have a thermostat. |
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Snecklifter
Yearling
United Kingdom
144 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2010 : 11:48:01
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The way it is set up is like this:
I use a 40W red bulb (not infra-red) and because the vivarium is quite large, the bulb cannot heat the viv to the desired temperature on its own, likewise, nor can the heat mat - so... I use a Lucky Reptile Thermo Control Pro Ii;Vivarium Thermostat, it has one circuit that allows you to control a heat mat by thermostat and a timer circuit (two actually) so that you can control a bulb. The bulb is covered by a guard, I can't stress enough how essential that is!
The bulb is attached to the celing of the viv in the hot end and set to come on at 0700 and go off at 2030. The mat covers half the vivarium floor hot end and is covered by a layer of kitchen towell and a generous covering of bark chipping substrate. The temperature probe for the thermostat is in the middle of the viv under the substrate and I set it to 28 degrees for daytime, which is set to coincide with the bulb coming on at 0700. Initially, both the mat and the bulb work together to heat the vivarium, it works out that when the thermostat reaches its daytime target of 28 degrees, the temperature gradient is about right at 24-25 degrees in the cool side and 29-31 degrees in the hot side (monitored by an Exoterra digital themometer/hygrometer at the hot end and a ExoTerra digital themometer at the cool end). You could set the thermostat to 29 degrees for daytime and your temperature range will be (from experience) 26-27 degrees to 31-32 degrees, but to be honest, my snake prefers it cooler so I have it set to 28. Anyway, as soon as the thermostat target is reached, the mat switches off and the bulb is now heating the viv on its own. I have the thermostat range set to its minimum variation setting of one degree, so that during the day when the mat switches off, the temperature drops slowly in both ends until the thermostat reaches 27 degrees when it switches back on again. There is a small fluctuation in temperature using this method but it is only about 1.5 degrees at worse at either end, certainly my snake doesn't mind at all. The mat now effectively supplements the bulb (which does the bulk of the heating) until nighttime settings kick in.
At 2000, the nighttime setting on the thermostat kicks in, I have this set to 29 degrees, so for half an hour in the evening, there is an overlap where the mat and the light are on together for definate, this works quite well, don't ask me why I set it up this way, there must have been a reason! Anyway, at 2030, the light goes out and the mat now becomes the sole heating source. The temperature will drop now (simulating nightime) by about 4 degrees at each end, again, the snake seems to be quite happy with this. The bulb being on during the day simulates the sun in the sky, heating the ground and when the bulb goes out at night, not only is it dark as it would be in real life, but the mat heats up simulating the thermal leakage that the ground would naturally give off after a hot day, in other words, as real to wild environment as possible (although captive bred snakes probably wont care too much!). I use a smallish water dish in the hot end that keeps the humidity at about 55%. I use moss to increase the humidity during the shedding cycle.
In summary:
Red 40w Bulb guarded and on a timer 0700 - 2030 hrs only (two timing circuits are possible with this set up though).
Mat on a thermostat - daytime 28 degrees (0700-2000 hrs), nightime 29 degrees (2000 - 0700 hrs).
This is my set-up and it works for me, I cannot gaurentee that it will work for you, however, I hope this helps. |
0.0.1 Royal 'Trowzer' |
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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2010 : 16:45:44
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It's funny how very different US set-ups are to UK set-ups.
Not many people use heat lamps here in the US as a main heat source. In Florida and most parts of the US, humidity will drop down to 10% or lower during the winter. A ceramic heat lamp will zap that humidity to ZERO. Therefore, most people use plastic tubs (like a RUB - RUBs are not common in the US) to maintain good humidity. Heat lamps cannot be used in plastic tubs.
Anyway, most people in the US use either an Under-Tank-Heater (UTH) or flexwatt heat tape even for display viv set-ups.
In a non-plastic viv set-up, the flexwatt is placed underneath the viv - outside - to provide a hot spot set with a thermostat to heat the floor of the hot-side of the viv to 90-92 degrees fahrenheit. This usually means that the flexwatt is only producing between 95-97 heat. When the snake sits on that hot spot, he absorbs the heat and anything extra gets dissipated by the substrate on the floor of the viv. A snake can't get burned if your flexwatt is only producing a maximum of 97F.
Okay, think of it this way - if you put your hand under your armpit, you are feeling 97 degrees fahrenheit of heat (unless you got a fever). You continue to produce heat for the rest of your body even when that armpit is smothered in 97 degrees worth of heat. Your armpit will not burn up because your body just doesn't produce enough heat to raise your armpit temperatures too much higher than 97 because of the body's built-in thermostat - unless you got a fever.
So, the most important equipment you need for your viv is your THERMOSTAT. If you got your thermostat set for 97F, your snake will not burn up. By the way, your snake is cold-blooded - he instinctively moves around your viv to get good temps. When one side gets too hot, he moves to the other side. Unless your viv is not conducive to security, he might suffer through too much heat because he can't feel secure in the colder side of your viv.
Okay, in the US, house air conditioners are usually set at 78 in the summer and 72 in the winter. These are a bit too cold for a royal in a tall viv - not much of a problem with a plastic tub because the heat gradient from the hot side dissipates to the cold side to keep temps there within 10 degrees of the hot side.
So, to maintain 80 degrees of ambient temperature (air temperature inside the viv), we use a ceramic heat lamp controlled, either by a separate thermostat or just a dimmer on top of the viv. Now, this will zap humidity, so the lower the heat needed from the lamp, the better. We compensate by putting a giant water bowl underneath the lamp.
In a royal python's natural setting in the wild, a royal python goes out at night - no overhead heat from the sun. It thermo-regulates by choosing ground temps under burrows that retained daytime heat. Therefore, belly temps are just as appropriate in maintaining a heat gradient in a viv as much as a heat lamp.
P.S. Royal's don't require a night-time drop. You can keep the viv at the same temperature gradient 24x7 all year long. Yes, that includes breeding temps. |
        
Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
Edited by - anatess on 20/09/2010 16:50:39 |
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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2010 : 17:09:40
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About the "jungle is not small" comment... those people must not have taken care of royals!
I will dare that guy to put all his hatchlings in an adult viv and run statistics on how many will eat!
In adult-sized viv, a hatchling will have to travel relatively far to get the proper temperature. A hatchling will more than likely stay in a non-preferred temperature instead of risking being exposed while searching for better temps. OR, the hatchling will get so stressed out that it will cruise the entire viv all day long looking for a secure spot. "In the jungle", a hatchling royal will stay inside burrows and find hot/cold spots inside the burrows.
It's just as easy to put a hatchling in a 4L RUB and put it inside your viv so that 1/3 of the RUB is on the hot side. My 4L RUB has 2 small hides - so small that the sides and top of the hide is touching the hatchling when it is coiled up inside. Then I put a water bowl and a bit of aspen substrate and it's good to go inside their adult viv's.
When I bought my albino back in 2008 - she was only around 400grams, I put her in a 10 gallon tank stuffed with tons of decor. She stayed in there for almost a year before she became big enough to move to a 20L. (P.S., in the US, a lot of people use modified glass tanks as they are easy to sanitize). Before I got her, her previous owner said she's a finicky eater. She was in a 30L tank. No wonder. Ever since I got her and set her up in a 10 gallon, she's never had a problem with food except in the winter when she would go on a month-long fast.
In this picture, the "rock-like" stuff on both sides of the water bowl are the hides. To travel from one hide to the other, or to take a drink, the royal cruises underneath some foliage and decor maintaining security.
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Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
Edited by - anatess on 20/09/2010 17:14:16 |
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nok1888
Yearling
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
Posted - 22/09/2010 : 22:00:03
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Roly m8 that set up sounds bang on exactly what I was looking for without knowing how to if you know what I mean. I'll try replicate it cheers for the post m8
Anatess, I knew as soon as he said that it must be wrong. He actually told me to get a 36" even a 48" to save money, this was when I was planning to get a hatchling.
Ive found one on preloved thats looking for a new home, 2 and a half y/o normal with a 36" viv she's been in for a while so she'll be used to it now and she's about 3 feet so tank will be ok for a while. Its actually a good size I'll post a picture in the pic section. She comes on Saturday and cant wait, its my first. Its been 18 years since i saw my 1st Royal and dying for 1 ever since so.......WOO HOO lol |
0.1.0 Royal Normal - Orlina Bodhi Lobsang
1.0.0 Royal Normal - Sedrick Rinzen Sonam
2.0.0 Cats 18 y/o - Monty, kitten - Dodger
2.0.0 Border Collie's 7 y/o - Jinky, 2 y/o - Chance
0.0.5 Goldfish - Haggis, Pookie, Oddball, Spongebob and Slimey (kids eh lol)
Strange creature, unknown species, wife likes to call it "teenage daughter"
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Welly
Yearling
United Kingdom
423 Posts |
Posted - 22/09/2010 : 22:28:39
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Ok, Just to go against the the grain.....
I run mats and Ceramics in all 3 of my viv's. All of which are on Habistats.
They all live in 3 foot vivs from a fairly early age and to date i have only had one problem with feeding and that was converting Sabre (Royal) over to Rats.
My royal is around 12 months old @ 416g
My Kingsnake is around 9 months old @ 132g
My BRB is 6 months old @ 122g
All eat no problems and all are a good length and all are in good health.
All are in 3 foot viv's
Contraversial lol
The mats are all sat around 28 ish give or take. They are all inside the vivs and all covered with substrates.
All 3 of my snakes use them on and off and all three roam from cold ends to warm ends, high hides, moss pots etc.
None are stressed and none have had any problems to date that realate to heat.
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0.1.0 Royal Python
0.0.1 Mexican Black King
1.0.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa |
Edited by - Welly on 22/09/2010 22:29:13 |
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nok1888
Yearling
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
Posted - 22/09/2010 : 22:46:32
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Welly m8, theres just that much conflicting information on the internet so been trying to get as much information as I can on this website (where or who better to ask than all of you here), I realise all snakes are different but just wanted a general idea on whats best for the snake. Luckily Im getting a 2.5 y/o so viv size isnt an issue anymore. The main thing thats been worrying me is not only the warm/cool sides but the whole ambient air temp and getting a good temperature gradient throughout the tank as well as making sure I get the humidity right.
Im taking advice from all over the forum I just keep asking mostly (and probably to everyones annoyment lol) the same questions, I tend to over analyze and research which is probably whats left me so confused and clueless lol |
0.1.0 Royal Normal - Orlina Bodhi Lobsang
1.0.0 Royal Normal - Sedrick Rinzen Sonam
2.0.0 Cats 18 y/o - Monty, kitten - Dodger
2.0.0 Border Collie's 7 y/o - Jinky, 2 y/o - Chance
0.0.5 Goldfish - Haggis, Pookie, Oddball, Spongebob and Slimey (kids eh lol)
Strange creature, unknown species, wife likes to call it "teenage daughter"
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Welly
Yearling
United Kingdom
423 Posts |
Posted - 22/09/2010 : 23:12:54
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quote:
Originally posted by nok1888
Welly m8, theres just that much conflicting information on the internet so been trying to get as much information as I can on this website (where or who better to ask than all of you here), I realise all snakes are different but just wanted a general idea on whats best for the snake. Luckily Im getting a 2.5 y/o so viv size isnt an issue anymore. The main thing thats been worrying me is not only the warm/cool sides but the whole ambient air temp and getting a good temperature gradient throughout the tank as well as making sure I get the humidity right.
Im taking advice from all over the forum I just keep asking mostly (and probably to everyones annoyment lol) the same questions, I tend to over analyze and research which is probably whats left me so confused and clueless lol
Oh i agree with you completely. As for the gradiant:
If you place a ceramic too one side of the viv a few inches frm the wall it will heat that side of the viv up.
The rest of the viv will be at room temp so will go from ambient temp at one end to raised at ceramic end.
Works very well
As for getting the temps suitable for your snake just observe them over a few weeks and see which end it stays in the most and adjust from there. If they spend most of the week in the cold end turn the heat down and visa versa. Do this over a weeks period and through a feed and watch.
Thats what i have done. Not exactly gospel though. |
0.1.0 Royal Python
0.0.1 Mexican Black King
1.0.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa |
Edited by - Welly on 22/09/2010 23:16:26 |
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nok1888
Yearling
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
Posted - 22/09/2010 : 23:41:44
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| Cool thanks for the advice welly, I'll keep an eye on her habits and judge it as it goes small increases/decreases until she seems happy with it |
0.1.0 Royal Normal - Orlina Bodhi Lobsang
1.0.0 Royal Normal - Sedrick Rinzen Sonam
2.0.0 Cats 18 y/o - Monty, kitten - Dodger
2.0.0 Border Collie's 7 y/o - Jinky, 2 y/o - Chance
0.0.5 Goldfish - Haggis, Pookie, Oddball, Spongebob and Slimey (kids eh lol)
Strange creature, unknown species, wife likes to call it "teenage daughter"
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Snecklifter
Yearling
United Kingdom
144 Posts |
Posted - 23/09/2010 : 15:57:18
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Hope it works for you Nok1888. You can tinker with the thermostat settings by a degree or so each way to achieve the correct temperature gradient for your vivarium, or indeed, snake. Allow a day or so after adjustment to allow for the temps to settle down, don't be tempted to tinker too often because you're impatient. Assuming the mat is connected via the thermostat and you didn't make a mistake in set-up, then the snake will not physically be able to burn itself.
cheers. |
0.0.1 Royal 'Trowzer' |
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Help with heating please!
