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Strawb
Yearling
Germany
120 Posts |
 Posted - 18/02/2011 : 07:36:28
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OK! I mentioned on another thread that my royal, Tia, was wild farmed. This annoyed me to say the least. I got the snake due to the previous owners having no time and no idea how to really look after her. I did not buy her as a wild farmed baby.
Now I mentioned my dislike of the fact that she was wild farmed and this got quite a response from a few people. So after this introductory waffle, here's the topic.
What are your views on WF, WC and CB? Should more awareness be raised about the importing and selling of royals and indeed all exotics? Should retailers that sell WF and WC animals be exposed? Would lobbying for stricter controls both here and abroad be worth while and allow the people in Africa to continue to earn a living and people in the west a little peace of mind?
Let us know what you think and see if we can get a good healthy debate going here.
I know I'm new to the forum, but I'm not trying to stir up a hornets nest. I think like most people on this forum we care about our animals and put their welfare first. |
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BlueDragon
Sub Adult
United Kingdom
876 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 10:02:57
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| My mam kept tortoises as a kid and she tells me that you used to buy the babies for a quid down the local petshop and you were told to just put them in the garden and they'd look after themselves (her's didn't, her's lived indoors and slept under the raidiator!). People used to drill holes in their shells so they could tether them up to stop them walking away, paint their shells in bright colours and patterns and even used to leave them outside in the winter, no doubt to find them dead in the spring. I know that maybe that's not quite the same thing, and it was that way quite a while ago now and you hope that people know better, but knowing that makes me wonder how much people know about where exotics come from (the tortoises coming in from the wild while people were obviously clueless about there keeping). I'm not a fan of wild caught or wild farmed exotics 'cause these days there's no excuse for it. At some point all exotics came from the wild, but that was a long time ago. You'd think these days people would know better, but I'm not sure everyone does. So I'd say that there should be more out there about where they come from, how they're treated/kept/handled. It's the same thing as rodent farming and there isn't near enough out there about that. If people don't even know how most hamsters are treated and kept then how can they know how WC and WF exotics are treated and what they've had to go through? |
Just me and my zoo. |
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Benji54
Hatchling
United Kingdom
59 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 12:34:59
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| im not sure of my views on WF but WC just seems a bad idea in all ways. your gunna have a pet that is wholly wild and will not at all enjoy human company. theres also the potential for health problems and parasites and morally, id just feel wrong doing it. i always feel when i buy CB that by taking it home to a (suitably) big viv and a loving home, i am offering it a better life. with WC i couldnt kid myself into thinking that. |
1.0.0 royal "ophion"
1.1.0 corns "wotsit" and "biscuit"
0.1.0 coastal carpet python- "serendipity"
0.1.0 bunny rabbit (?) "Truffle"
RIP Prisma Pequeno- Brazilian Rainbow Boa |
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 13:57:37
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Yes, like Bluedragon I too was reminded of the tortoise trade when I first learned about wild farming, or captive farming. (I first heard of it as captive farming, or cf, so I'll stick to cf in my post.)
The word 'farming' or 'ranching' is misleading. At first I thought it signified some big breeding operation, until I found that it meant the practice of 'harvesting' ie digging royal python eggs out of the burrows where the wild females had laid them. In some areas I believe the females are captured while gravid, kept until they lay their eggs, and then released back into the wild. Other reports indicate that these snakes may be slaughtered for meat/skin.
The eggs are then incubated and hatched around April/May, and the hatchlings shipped abroad, where they are reared just as captive bred hatchlings are; they are also wormed and checked for parasites(we hope) and when they are eating (or believed to be eating) they are then marketed ...ie they go into pet shops. That's a rough ride for a small royal.
This trade is controlled by CITES, the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. In Ghana a dollar tax is levied on each egg, each hatchling exported, and a further charge is made for collection of adult females and their return to the wild. Reports indicate that a number of hatchlings are also returned to the wild to keep up the royal python population. Apparently there is less control in Togo and Benin.
There are varying reports as to the treatment of hatchlings during this process, and, I'm sorry to say, some horror stories akin to the old tortoise trade, where the poor creatures were shipped piled up in crates and met little better fates in petshops. I remember as a child in the 1950s, seeing a box of tortoises in the pet shop, piled up like so many cabbages.
It's true that new bloodlines contribute to the vigour of snakes bred in this country but I feel that this trade should be more rigorously controlled, supervised, and curtailed. I wouldn't want to see lower-waged people in Africa deprived of a living but at the same time the snakes' welfare is of great importance.
What worries me just as much is the varying treatment of these hatchlings in certain pet shops, and the advice/info (often very very poor, as I can attest myself - 'nough said) given to prospective customers, who may often be very inexperienced. There is simply no excuse for this, imo.
As for wild-caught. I said in another thread that obviously you would not find cf morphs for sale - but there I was wrong, because many royal morphs have been bred from 'sports' occurring naturally in the wild. I can see the point of capturing an interesting looking royal to include in a breeding programme ... but what the snake thinks about it is going to be quite another matter? Jail or luxury hotel?
I wouldn't knowingly choose to own a wild caught snake of a species that could be easily bred in captivity - apart from adaptation/ feeding problems, there are the dangers of disease/parasites - although, as I say, I feel there is a case for wild caught in the realm of breeding and new bloodlines.
Sorry this is such a screed. It's taken me hours to write, so sorry if I've overlapped with anyone else. I do feel strongly on this subject.
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Edited by - n/a on 20/02/2011 11:08:38 |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 14:07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Benji54
im not sure of my views on WF but WC just seems a bad idea in all ways. your gunna have a pet that is wholly wild and will not at all enjoy human company. theres also the potential for health problems and parasites and morally, id just feel wrong doing it. i always feel when i buy CB that by taking it home to a (suitably) big viv and a loving home, i am offering it a better life. with WC i couldnt kid myself into thinking that.
You'll find that most snakes are "wholly wild" the fact that they've been bred in captivity doesn't seem to stop them wanting to defend themselves and bite humans, only plenty of contact with humans will get that out of a baby, with a WC it just means the snake is probably older when it needs those regular handling sessions. Reptiles aren't like dogs they're never really domesticated and won't ever really "enjoy" human contact, WC or CB doesn't make much of a difference, they can learn to be fine with human contact but I don't really believe they'll actively seek it or enjoy it.
My Axanthic is a WC and he is better at handling than any of my other snakes, he occasionally gets a little head-shy but I'm guessing that's due to the scars down his back he doesn't like things passing over his head. If I presented Valhalla and Scar to you and asked you to guess which was wild you'd say Valhalla every single time, she's a CB and she bites and flinches all the time while being handled despite my best efforts to calm her down (actually she is getting a lot better but still has that rebellious streak in her)
Why wouldn't you think you're offering a WC a better life? You're most probably offering it a safer life and I'm fairly sure they don't understand the concept of imprisonment. :) |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 15:25:23
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Ah yes, Kelfezond, but you have to admit that your Scar is something of a VIP and was probably special from the moment of capture.
He strikes me as a bit of a Clint Eastwood figure ... rolling along the savannah, wrapped in his serape, smoking a cheroot and battling with the bad guys ...
Then came Hollywood, just as he was getting a bit long in the tooth and fancying taking it easier. Wine women and song, fame and celebrity, and now, in his middle age, still well-known and up for a bit of 
He certainly wouldn't want to go back to roughing it out in the savannah ... |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 15:27:37
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| lmao. I'll tell him you said that about him ^^ |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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mort13
Yearling
United Kingdom
107 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 16:11:16
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Oh my God,just read this. I didn't realise what went in in regards to CF snakes.
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1.0.0 Royal Python, 0.1.0 Western Hognose, 4.3.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 T-Albino Cape House Snake, 1.1.0 True Olive House Snakes
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake, 1.0.0 California Kingsnake
0.0.2 Occelated skinks, 1.0.0 Leopard gecko, 0.0.1 Cranwell's Horned frog,
0.1.0 Congo Green mantis, 0.0.1 H.Spinifer, 0.1.0 G.Rosea (RCF)
0.1.0 normal c0ckatiel
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Benji54
Hatchling
United Kingdom
59 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 17:31:16
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| your quite right kelfezond and i totally agree. no snake is ever domesticated and i also agree that the most you can REALLY hope for is that they will merely tolerate handling. what i meant was that IMO wild caught snakes have not usually been handled as much as CB and so will be less tolerant. obviously in your case, this is invreted and similar to my experience the other day where my rescued carpet python struck my face...shes CB but she seemed pretty wild then!! :) just thought id let you know i do agree, i just didnt word it as eloquently as i could have done. |
1.0.0 royal "ophion"
1.1.0 corns "wotsit" and "biscuit"
0.1.0 coastal carpet python- "serendipity"
0.1.0 bunny rabbit (?) "Truffle"
RIP Prisma Pequeno- Brazilian Rainbow Boa |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 17:52:38
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| Yeah its strange when things like that happen. And it's okay I wasn't offended or anything I just thought being one of the few who does own a wc i'd put in my opinion :) I honestly think it all depends on the snake, I didnt realize how diverse the personality of a snake could be until I got a few |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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Benji54
Hatchling
United Kingdom
59 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 18:43:25
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| yeah i always have to correct myself when i say "royals are shy" "corns are placcid" "carpet pythons dont bite your face" (lol!) or any other such generality cast on such an enigma of an animal! makes em a lot more exciting as pets i think!... ma mama always tooold me, a snake is laaaike a bowx o' chocolates, |
1.0.0 royal "ophion"
1.1.0 corns "wotsit" and "biscuit"
0.1.0 coastal carpet python- "serendipity"
0.1.0 bunny rabbit (?) "Truffle"
RIP Prisma Pequeno- Brazilian Rainbow Boa |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 18:55:14
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| Lmao, very true. I believe i'll be naming my snakes after drugs in future, diablo will be speed, valhalla steroids, scar weed and cleopatra extacy lol |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 19:05:12
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Ah, right, so you'll be calling your new girl Mary?
Mary had a little weed
Hid in a sunny corner.
Now every guy who needs a high
Just asks for - Mary Warner!
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Royalbob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
1115 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2011 : 23:14:05
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...........  |
1.0 Enchi butter
1.0 Enchi X Pastel
1.0 Fire het clown
1.0 Bumblebee
1.0 pinstripe
0.1 Enchi Fire
0.1 Pastel calico
0.1 Yellow belly Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon pastel poss het clown
0.1 Het clown
0.1 Yellow belly
0.1 Green Mojave
0.1 HC Albino
0.2 Normals
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 19/02/2011 : 11:18:00
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LOL! Oops, sorry Strawb, us merry band of hijackers made away with the thread there!
Sorry to say that I've just come across more disquieting information re the cf trade. It's actually in the Kevin McCurley 'Complete Ball Python' book (last chapter or two) where K McC relates the extraordinary state of affairs in Africa that has followed the royal python morph boom in the states.
Cf farming is no longer an 'industry' harvesting and providing young snakes to the pet trade - in many cases the egg hatching is just a means to hoping to strike it lucky with an unusual morph, which the discoverer hopes to sell at top price. It sounds a bit like a combination of gold prospecting and gang warfare, with 'dealers' cutting each other out, poor guys trying to get rich quick, and even captive bred morphs being slipped into the wild trade as unique hatchlings ... (sorry if my precis of events is a bit chaotic there!)
I don't really need to spell out the implications for the eggs and young snakes in all this ... just very very sad news, I'm afraid. |
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Edited by - n/a on 19/02/2011 11:20:11 |
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Strawb
Yearling
Germany
120 Posts |
Posted - 19/02/2011 : 12:08:04
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CITES unfortunately is often just words on paper with nobody enforcing the laws. 
I personally would like to see better training given at the breeding source and definitely regarding the selling of all herps. I've gone into pet shops and seen baby royals in a viv with baby boas and juvenile corns. I've been to shops here in Germany where they sell snakes but only sell live mice for feeding. Frozen is not an option.
Excepting morphs, I think if anyone would like a royal or any other reptile for that matter, I would check out the animal homes first. Also lost and found is a possibility.
I'm the proud owner of 3 snakes none of which I have bought (No! I'm not a miser ). My first snake, Carla, is a Californian king snake and she was found wandering around outside the local brothel. We wrote a letter in the local paper asking if anyone had lost her, but no one replied.
My second snake is a juvenile corn. I got her last year after a man discovered her trying to get into his house.
Tia, my royal, was neglected and is now adjusting to her new home.
I think we can help herps at all levels. |
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2011 : 11:29:43
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Yes, I did wonder about CITES - it seems to be rather an unwieldy organisation, spreading itself a bit thinly - I couldn't get anywhere on its website.
Your snakes sound like the cats I've had since I lived here - they all literally wandered in off the street! I must say I like secondhand pets myself - after the arrival of Shahi (who I bought from a shop before I realised what cf meant) I decided I'd like another royal, but that I'd like to give a home to a snake who needed one, for whatever reason. Saada's and Surahi's owners were both having to sell because they were moving and couldn't keep snakes in their new accommmodation. Both girls were very well looked after and good value, I might add, but they needed a new home asap. I would much rather take on a 'secondhand snake' than give custom to a badly-organised shop.
It's great that you were able to help Tia and Carla and the corn snake - bet you wish Carla could tell you what on earth she was doing outside a brothel!
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Edited by - n/a on 20/02/2011 11:34:50 |
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WF, WC or CB?
