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SurroundedByMadness
Yearling
United Kingdom
111 Posts |
 Posted - 17/07/2011 : 15:46:44
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I was watching these two videos on youtube today. For people that have no knowledge of reptile keeping it would probably completely makes sense. But I think its a load of crap..
I was wondering what you guys thought about it?
Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLAJR_dlL28
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNuO5KfBGmk&NR=1 |
I believe that education is all about being excited about something. Seeing passion and enthusiasm helps push an educational message. - Steve Irwin
Normal Royal Python - Kaa
Normal Royal Python - Donkey
Bearded Dragon - Aggro
Bearded Dragon - Eragon
Mexican Golden Red Rump |
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Jayde
Yearling
United Kingdom
291 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2011 : 16:25:59
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I agree it looks like a lot of them a very stressed, a lot of the animals being handled, aren't being handled in an appropriate manner.
But then you also have to think about the angle at which they are making the video from.
From the looks of the video, it make it seem like some back alley, dodgy market, because they have control of what clips are shown. They may have just pieced together the few people that let these events down. There could have been 100 other breeders there being exemplary in the way they handle and have housed their reptiles for the show.
They sound like the type of people who are opposed to exotic pets, and only see cats and dogs as pet "material".
I have mixed opinions and feelings about reptile shows.
I would love to go to one, and will hopefully be going to the Portsmouth one, as I like the idea of being able to make contacts with breeders etc. But I'm not sure how I would be if I turned up at a show and animals were clearly distressed, in unfit temporary accommodation, poor conditions and being handled in a way that could potentially pass diseases and sorts.
It's a tough one because there will be mixed opinions. |
Edited by - Jayde on 17/07/2011 16:29:13 |
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Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
5008 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2011 : 16:33:21
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I agree that some of the animals needs are not been met in that video and I've already voiced my dislike for that type of selling of any animals but seeking to tar all reptile keepers with the same brush is wrong and you could selectively display ''facts'' about anything, put in a serious voice and a quotation mark and mislead the watcher. They dont show the breeding or collection process or the years of care received after this so to me its taking a snippet of the hobby of keeping reptiles.
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Laws
Fully Grown Royal
United Kingdom
1007 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2011 : 17:18:36
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Hmmm mixed oppinions on this . firstly if i didnt own reptiles , and didnt have ny knowledge at all , if i watched this i would be horrified , the way they talk reeing off research etc , it would all make sense .
However when u look closely , this has been very cleverly done , with clips most likely selectively picked to high light the points they want to make . Its clear they dont think any reptiles should be kept as pets and that most reptile keepers are irresponsible . The talk on salmonella , us as responsible herp keepers are all aware of risks and eliminate them , at home we dont keep them in cramp contidions , we strike to provide the best home possible for a rep friends , we learn the correct temps , provide an enclosure where they can thermo regulate to the correct need at the time , be that feeding / or they are too hot etc .
I havent been to a show , and altho i cant see water bowls etc and it does look indeed cramped , i think its not a perminant enclosure and i feel it must cause a huge amount of stress . however they didnt show clips of the sellers who really do take measures to show their reps off aswel as taking the stress factor into account . i have looked at shows from the uk and us online , and they look clean , well organised and nice to go to . whereas the shot they show in this indeed make it look like a cattle market .
I felt mad that it seems like they are condemning all reptile keepers , that we keep them like that all the time , they dont see clips like this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Ac4kk_Mh0 , these snakes go to shows , but this is a reptile store and look how gorgeous the enclosures are .
The one thing i did totally agree with was the venomous snake part , its an accident waiting to happen , but other than that , i feel slightly annoyed by it , but having never been to a show myself i dont kno the ins and outs , but as a responsible rep keeper i feel annoyed .
Good post , one to get lots of mised comments i think x |
www.facebook.com/Thehogbox
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Laws
Fully Grown Royal
United Kingdom
1007 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2011 : 17:20:27
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| ** another point i meant to make was about captive breeding , crawl cays for example there are only around 8 lef tin the wild so they say , and they arent allowed to be collected anymore due to the area they come from being made into a reserve , now hopefully they will breed and numbers will rise . but its up to responsible rep eeps to breed them and keep them going in captivity for us to enjoy and preserve ?? |
www.facebook.com/Thehogbox
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2011 : 18:04:07
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Hmm...I got wondering who were these guys and why did they make this film?
Turns out they're called the Animal Protection Agency who, principally, campaign against the trade in wild caught animals.
I looked at their website, and the first thing that caught my eye was an article about 'Essex Jungle'. I couldn't read it all as my computer's sidebar keeps pushing the little scroll-down arrow off the page, but one of the complaints APA has is that Hector the monitor lizard is living in a situation of 'animal abuse.' (I doubt if Hector would agree ...)
I think we would all welcome greater protection for any animal, reptile or mammal, needing it, and an end to the 'seamy side' of animal trading, whether it be badly run petshops or bad conditions for animals anywhere. But the good intentions here are being contaminated by hysterical and flimsy arguments and a great deal of very subjective 'slanting' of reports such as the one on Hamm.
It's a pity, because APA could, with clearer thinking, enlist the support of responsible reptile keepers, rather than denouncing us in this wholesale manner. |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2011 : 18:13:11
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Video is made from the A.P.A so you can pretty much rely that it's codswallop.
(I will view it when I get in from work) |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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Edited by - GMac on 17/07/2011 21:22:40 |
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Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
5008 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2011 : 20:01:36
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| Its clearly selective and there will always be bad elements and people out for money but even me who doesn't like the idea of pet shows does think that the vast majority of the trade puts the animal first and for every bad thing you find you could find 1,000,000 good things. |
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markmifsud
Sub Adult
United Kingdom
534 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2011 : 21:22:01
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| Its a shame tey didnt comment on how much better the CB market is, as it helps keep the wild caught to the minimum as there is little need for it, therefore, preserving the snakes in their natural environment healthy |
1.1.0 Pastal Ball
1.0.0 Normal Ball aged 7(ish)
0.1.0 Normal Ball aged 7(ish)
Bromley. SE London |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 18/07/2011 : 00:36:51
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Just watched some of it now I got a bit irritated and had to turn it off though, the things they are saying -while true long time- aren't true for the duration of a show, snakes curl in bloody drain pipes for the whole day without water out in africa they're not dying of thirst there.
As for the crowds, they're being sold as pets, while it may be stressful being handled and shown off is something it has to get used to really.
Just my opinion |
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jhk2005
Yearling
United Kingdom
166 Posts |
Posted - 18/07/2011 : 14:57:44
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I'll apologize for this rant before I get started cos it's gonna take up some space...
i've just watched the first one and had to turn it off before I track down that idiot narrator give him a python-style squeeze right round his sanctimonius neck! who is this gimp???? Where do the APA get off making one-sided films like this? They're all fools who have conveniently forgotten that our cats, dogs, mice, hamsters, goldfish and budgies are descended from 'wild caught' animals I don't doubt! and let's not forget that mankind has selectively domesticated and bred all the animals we farm and eat from wild stock...
They preach "we're thinking of the animals welfare" (translated: we hate anything without fur, feathers or fins) and try to portray reptile keepers through videos like this as people who don't care about our animals and keep them in squalor which is unjust to say the least! The members here in my opinion seem to treat their pets like royalty and would do anything to prevent them coming to harm, who are these film-makers to say otherwise??
Then there's the strong argument that a lot of reptiles commonly kept by our community have been kept and bred for longer than most of our members have been alive, (I have read somewhere that victorian people kept pet snakes) so who the heck has the right to decide what is considered domesticated and what isn't? Btw, on the subject of space? I acutally borrowed a night vision cam from my brother a couple of years back and I can tell you in all honesty my burmese is the laziest devil out there ; he actually moves and exercises MORE when I handle him, besides that he spends most of the day/night asleep! The only time he moves is to adjust himself for comfort, to poop or to get a drink. These berks are the sort of fools that would put a baby royal in a 36inch viv and wonder why its not settling in!?! Why aren't they campaigning to stop dog leads as a form of animal cruelty? or stop the production of little 'globe' bowls for fish? small wire cages for birds? wire wheels for hamsters? I could go on but you get the point...
Maybe the APA want to remember that you can't 'pick and choose' what is cruel to animals and the last time I checked God hadn't made them the guardians of animal welfare... There's even an entry on their website condemning Doncaster council for not stopping the reptile shows planned there!? It's strange to me that they bang on about the illegal reptile trade, but I thought under-cover filming is illegal too, which is precisely why it's under-cover? I could be wrong, but if i'm not then maybe our members should all go to the next Doncaster or Hamm shows en masse and then sue the APA for filming us without our permission? That might give them enough of a headache so as to convince them to leave reptile keepers alone and go bother other people?
I'm sorry to have taken up so much space but i've really had a gutfull of people like this trying to cause us trouble! As far as i'm concerned, the APA are just a bunch of interfering twits with their own agenda, so unless they all turn vegan and stop using or wearing ANYTHING that originates from an animal source or testing (yes, I include chalk and pringle's crisps) they should stop their preaching and leave us all alone!!  |
1.6.0 Normal Royals - Will, Grace, Lolly, Patty, Maddie, Mystique, Victoria
1.1.0 Pastel Royals - Becks, Sophie
0.1.0 Spider Royal - Charlotte
0.1.0 Mojave Royal - Mo
1.1.0 Yellowbelly Royals - Pinky, Perky
1.0.0 Pinstripe Royal - Pip
1.0.0 Bumblebee Royal - Buzz
1.0.0 Vanilla Royal - Vinnie
1.0.0 Lesser Royal - Leo
1.0.0 Cinnamon Royal - Sam
1.0.0 Burmese Python - Kane
0.1.0 Albino Burmese Python - Amber
1.0.0 Redfoot Tortoise - Chucky |
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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
Posted - 18/07/2011 : 17:57:04
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I learned a new British word! CODSWALLOP!!!
Golly, if you're going to attack a pet trade at least don't be dishonest about it.
It's stupidly irresponsible to compare a snake to a dog. Just like it is stupidly irresponsible to compare a dog to a human.
But, if you're really going to compare the two, then how about this:
I've been to reptile shows - quite a bit of them actually. And yes, it IS just like it is shown on the video. Snakes on deli cups, some stressed (who wouldn't be when there's a crowd of people peeking at a snake?). But how much different is that really than dogs in kennels so small that all a dog can do is stand up and turn around at those pet stores and even in high-faluting dog competition shows?
And captive breeding is not profitable? ARE YOU NUTS? Ever heard of Brian Barczyk and Ralph Davis? They each move over 10,000 snakes a year! And that barely puts a dent on the demand for captive bred reptiles! Heck, if I have several people trying to purchase my bumblebee from my private residence, how much more for the commercial breeders?
Okay, I can't go on. I'm going to be in a bad mood. I guess they don't know that zoos house their reptiles the same exact way we do. And I guess they don't know that even Bindi Irwin has her pet pythons in vivariums in her bedroom... or, maybe they do and they think Steve Irwin was a whacko...
Ok. I'm done.
By the way, did you notice that you can't comment on the videos? |
        
Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
Edited by - anatess on 18/07/2011 17:57:35 |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 18/07/2011 : 18:22:16
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Yeah I wonder why :p
I hate these people with a vengeance. |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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SurroundedByMadness
Yearling
United Kingdom
111 Posts |
Posted - 19/07/2011 : 22:03:19
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In my opinion, I guess there are people out there that don't treat their reptiles the right way and just use them to gain money without any proper knowledge or care. But the fact they're pretty much victimising the reptile trade, keepers and market is rediculous, they're assuming that all reptile keepers treat their animals like this all the time and at home they are always stressed in tiny little pots with no heating, hiding places.. All with inadequate care.
I completely agree with Kelfezond's 'rant' and I think the APA need to do their research before they go and broadcast out to the world how much of a bad thing it is to keep reptiles.
I mean c'mon, if your a respectable reptile breeder and you've got a big handful of baby snakes that are ready to be given new homes as soon as possible because there isn't enough room for them to be kept at home, would the APA rather them be stuck in a home that isnt big enough for them, or be put under stress for a few hours to eventually be given a new home? Maybe this point is just my own inexperience in breeding snakes, and if im wrong tell me. But from what I can make out i'm talking at least a little bit of sense.
I also agree with Laws about the venomous snake issue. I do agree that displaying them in that manner is totally irresponsible and is a disaster waiting to happen.
I'd never even heard of the APA before this.. |
I believe that education is all about being excited about something. Seeing passion and enthusiasm helps push an educational message. - Steve Irwin
Normal Royal Python - Kaa
Normal Royal Python - Donkey
Bearded Dragon - Aggro
Bearded Dragon - Eragon
Mexican Golden Red Rump |
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Welly
Yearling
United Kingdom
423 Posts |
Posted - 20/07/2011 : 00:21:50
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Well to add my piece. . . . . .
I kinda agree with what they are saying. I havent been to a show but have been to plenty of shops. The shows dissapoint me, after all these people are meant to be the "pro's" and should know exactly how animals, be them whatever, should be kept. This however shows it to be false. The same goes for quite a number of shops. To me they are profiting out of animals kept under conditions that they know are wrong, you can't then lecture a buyer about how they should be kept and you need to buy "x" amount of product.
To say all keepers are bad IS a horrific sweeping statement. I personnally have started a herp diploma, been to courses run by named people in the industry, read countless books and visited placed i wouldn't have dreamed of going prior to reptile keeping. The very fact that people are on this site and reading this goes along way to the good, honest keepers out there.
If anyone has seen any of my setups they will understand that i have taken time and effort (and a shed load if money) to make sure that all my snakes are in conditions that suit there needs and provide them with surroundings and stimulus that they would encounter in the wild. Believe me, it looks thrown together yet it actually took effort!
I do have an issue and will be open in saying so, as i have before, that people that have mass numbers and keep them in rubs is beyond me. Rubs have there uses. Like an unsuspecting clutch or quarentine etc, but a not as a soulution to harbour more numbers of snake as an ego boost. As i cant see what else it serves. My own opinion of course.
There are however people out there that really are clueless and need shooting. In all aspects of pets. As we are on the topic of reptiles i will stick with.
The likes of essex jungle really is cringeworthy, the iq level on that show is less than the size of my feet. This portrays us good keepers and enthusiasts as idiots. The same goes with the likes of Austin Stevens. I guess as it makes good tv, that's all that counts.
I'd like to remind everyone of a corn snake I helped to rescue last year. The kid had no interest what so ever and was only worried about money to go out with. There is no control over who can have what and no scrutiny to make sure people can keep up with the standards required. It does go on and we can't ignore it. Videos like this, despite a complete over reaction, do need to be shown to push the point out.
Forgive me if I have strong views and I offend anyone but that's the piont of an open forum.
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0.1.0 Royal Python
0.0.1 Mexican Black King
1.0.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa |
Edited by - Welly on 20/07/2011 00:23:12 |
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Welly
Yearling
United Kingdom
423 Posts |
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Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
5008 Posts |
Posted - 20/07/2011 : 01:09:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Welly
Forgive me if I have strong views and I offend anyone but that's the piont of an open forum.
I dont think anyonne could take offence you said nothing offensive. I do agree RUBS aren't a long term housing option for snakes and I hate to see snakes in draws like snakebytes TV. I do have a Boa in a 18 Litre RUB this was for 2 reasons, she was tiny and I am building a 6 foot by 2 foot vivarium for her which she will be moving into in about a month, the build is underway (diary to follow soon). I have voiced my opinion on reptile shows before I think they need to be vastly changed to improve reputations, although the video was selective it had that negative element to select, its should not be allowed and the organisers should better police the event. To see that lizard folded into that tub is heart breaking. |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 20/07/2011 : 01:16:45
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I don't like seeing most snakes in drawers and/or RUB's but I see no problem with it for Royals.
Royals like RUB's, pretty much all there is to say about it every time somebody pops onto the forum with a problem the suggestion of "try her in a RUB" is always up there. |
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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
Posted - 20/07/2011 : 01:35:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Lotabob
quote:
Originally posted by Welly
Forgive me if I have strong views and I offend anyone but that's the piont of an open forum.
I dont think anyonne could take offence you said nothing offensive. I do agree RUBS aren't a long term housing option for snakes and I hate to see snakes in draws like snakebytes TV. I do have a Boa in a 18 Litre RUB this was for 2 reasons, she was tiny and I am building a 6 foot by 2 foot vivarium for her which she will be moving into in about a month, the build is underway (diary to follow soon). I have voiced my opinion on reptile shows before I think they need to be vastly changed to improve reputations, although the video was selective it had that negative element to select, its should not be allowed and the organisers should better police the event. To see that lizard folded into that tub is heart breaking.
Lotabob, I don't know how long you've had royals... but I will guarantee you this. Brian Barczyk's snakes in the drawers (which is roughly 3 feet by 1.5 feet in size) are better off than your royal in a 6 foot x 2 foot viv.
Reptiles in Reptile shows are in tiny containers because YOU HAVE TO TRANSPORT THEM! Think about this - how do you think can you fit 500 snakes in your truck let alone your 10ft by 5ft Show Booth if you have to put them in a viv? And how do you figure you can get people to check out the snakes if you don't allow people to handle them? They are in the shows for THREE DAYS.
Brian Barczyk is a business - his snakes live in racks because they are not for his viewing pleasure - it is completely about the snakes getting adjusted to their environment so they will EAT, be HEALTHY, and ready for rehoming within 2 months.
The viv - that's not for the snake. That's for YOU. So you can feel better about your snake. The snake could care less if you put him in a 3 foot by 2 foot plastic box versus a 3 foot by 2 foot wooden viv decked out in all its fancypants vines and rock hides and waterfall water bowl. What the snake needs is security, proper temperature, and proper humidity. Something that is much more stable in an fully opaque plastic box than in a decked out viv with a glass front. That's why - I moved my snakes to plastic boxes - because they are healthier in the plastic box with stable conditions than in my glass vivarium in Florida that is a beast to keep humidity stable. If it was for ME, they'd be in the glass viv. But, since this is about the snakes, they moved to plastic boxes that I'm trying to figure out how to look pretty!
Whoa... I'm really getting my blood pressure up. Breathe in, breathe out...
There is nobody who cares more about our snakes than BRIAN BARCZYK of SnakebytesTV. He is one of the people that put snakes on the map of pet ownership - without Brian and people like him, you will be hard to find people who would rather leave a snake they find in their backyard alone than run for the shovel to chop its head off! Give him some credit for knowing what he's doing! |
Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
Edited by - anatess on 20/07/2011 01:40:54 |
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What do you guys think of this?
