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MissCat
Fully Grown Royal
1971 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2009 : 19:14:00
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I bought a royal python in september, he was born in july 2008, he wasnt in the best of conditions when i recieved him, but he wasnt too bad, he was feeding on pinkies then, so that is what i kept him on, but he would not feed at all! i decided this was "settling in" nerves so left him to it, did not handle him and left him for a week, still did not eat. so over the course of a month i tried EVERYTHING and i mean EVERYTHINg to get him to feed, all to no avail! i ended up replacing his viv to see if that was the problem, and he did seem far more relaxed in the slightly larger one, but still did not eat, so went through it all again! to cut a long story short i have over the course of 6 months replaced his viv 4 times, and have finally found one he is comfortable in, he moves around and explores (even going up on the 3 separate levels the tank has) he decides the temperature, humidity and lighting gradients as it is big enough to vary it really well so he can decide, i also had (up until last week-more on that in a mo) a small hide in each area.
AND he began to feed, however, even though i offered him various sized/species/temperature/maimed(!) food, still would only eat pinkies. the down side is that the viv is quite big. and he is having shedding problems also, he has not shed in one whole peice at all, only in little bits, almost constantly over the course of the last 3 months, to the point where his eye looked like it was crumpling up. i know i probably should have worried more a lot sooner, but this is my first snake, but this was the point where i really DID get very concerned, so i asked the reptiles expert at our local pet center for advice, he said nothing about the size viv i have, nor about his feeding habits so dont know if im going wrong there or not, but he did say to do the following: give him a bath in warm water and help wipe off the shedding skin (not peel or pick, just wipe) and to make certain that the skin was done around his eyes as he could lose his eye if any skin was retained.so this i did and he looked marginally better. the man also said to get a pot (margerine tub or similar) and fill it with sphagnum moss (previously well soaked in warm water then squeezed out) which i also did. Ra (my royal) refused to go in it until i removed ALL his other hides, at which point he caved in and went in it and there he has stayed- to the best of my knowledge he hasnt left it- for a week and his skin is looking MUCH MUCH better, though now he is looking "muted" in colour and his eyes are milky! :s
bear in mind that aside from bathing him 9 days ago, i have not yet handled him at all due to his feeding and shedding problems, and the fact that he strike feeds IN his viv (so i am a little nervous LOL)
i am still feeding him on furry pinkies which are slightly bigger, two at a time (the first he stikes at, the second i slip in while he's swallowing the first, i thought this would cause him to regurgitate at first, but he hasnt, and he is defecating fine- or in my opinion he is at least), 3 times a week. I may going to attempt to try a bigger food substance later this week (depending on any advice i may recieve here)
another point is that the final viv i rested upon is an all glass one, with 3 shelves (that he does go on) and a top opening lid. the man from the reptile section was surprised that Ra seemed to prefer this to the beech front opening one i also tried Ra in (as the whole birds coming from above predator thing)
i will post before and after the visit to the reptile man pictures just as soon as i can figure out how to so it LOL
anyway, i know he is in a bad way and that is why i am posting this, for your advice,
I recieved an email from a man today who was really angry with me, he had seen a picture of Ra, and also that he was still on pinkies/not being handled/ fed in viv/ shedding REALLY badly and he had quite a go at me, which didnt help.
I have had A LOT, and i do mean A LOT of conflicting advice from the net, books, vets, forums and other people i know who keep royals and need some unanimous confimation that what i am doing is either right or wrong and what i can do to help Ra.
the only advice the angry man today could give me was to feed Ra on bigger things (rats) and to give Ra to him.
obviously what i need is constructive advice, not to be put down or insulted.
thanks for reading this, please help me to help Ra. |
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MissCat
Fully Grown Royal
1971 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 19:26:41
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before visit to reptile man:
the bit of skin by his nose isnt attached btw, he is resting on it.
after visit to reptile man:(9 days later)
milky eyes can be seen really well in this one:
he's also quite wringly and saggy, though has gotten a lot bigger since he started feeding him. i will weigh and measure him tomorrow as i dont know that info yet |
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MissCat
Fully Grown Royal
1971 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 19:28:13
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meant to say wrinkly not wringly LOl.
and sorry the pics are rubbish, i only have my 3mp phone camera so that's the best i can do, it genuinely does make his skin look worse than it is. |
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Gingerpony
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
2663 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 19:31:27
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he looks very dehydrated in that pic and generally thin, i need to pop out now but i'll be back in half an hour and will read through your post properly  oh, and reply! |
Dumerils boas, BCO hybrids, Sinder Hypo boas, cornsnakes, ratsnakes, Day Geckos
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 19:40:33
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Hi Miss Cat, does this happen to be the Python in a Preloved advert?
Anyway, regardless, congrats on coming to the best place for help with your Royal, we'll get you sorted out
Housing
In the wild, Royals live in disused rodent burrows and are quite agoraphobic. They get stressed in large spaces and a stressed Royal will not eat properly. Owners of other pets find it difficult to understand (and may even think it cruel), but the best housing for a Royal is a cramped space. Depending on the size of your Royal I would certainly downsize to a RUB or very small viv. Temps at around 31/32C at the hot end, down to 22-25C at the cool end.
Feeding
A Royal (even as a hatchling) will never need anything smaller than a small mouse. Pinkies and fuzzies are so small that they may not even register in the Royal's mind as food. I would offer either a small mouse or preferably a Rat Pup. Royals hunt and sense food by heat and scent as much as sight, if not more. So try not to defrost in direct contact with water, I would recommend defrosting at room temperature close to the viv so that your snake is slowly aroused by the scent. Then heat it up, either in a sandwich bag in hot water (not boiling, just hot tap) or with a hair-drier in the direction of the snake, again to arouse it. Pay particular attention to the head, making it hotter than the rest so that the Royal will strike at the head.
Shedding
As you have been doing, provide a moist hide at the cool end (this will keep it moist longer), but also always provide a hide at the warm end too so that they can choose to thermoregulate if necessary. If the shed goes badly, give a bath in water at roughly the same temp as the hot end of the viv. Then allow to run through a towel or flannel to help remove and left-over skin.
Handling
I would not handle until your Royal is feeding regularly (as hard as it may be) and then don't handle until 2 days after a feed. Royals are by nature shy and over-handling can cause stress and again, non-feeding, so handling twice a week is probably plenty for them.
Hope this helps, feel free to ask more |
 
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Gingerpony
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
2663 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 20:18:35
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ok i'm back, not meaning to be cruel but your snake looks seriously ill, to the point of being a welfare case 
to back-up BE's points:
housing: my 08 royal is in a 15" x 12" plastic tub, enclosed on all sides except the front by a cardboard box (you don't need to use anything flash or expensive). the heat mat covers 1/3 of the floorspace and is 32*C in the warm end with 2 hides large enough for him to fit into but not overly big. i suggest you put your royal in a similar set-up as if they're easily stressed by a large enclosure and the first thing they'll do is go off their food.
feeding: if he'll only take a pinkie then try him with a small mouse immediately after. to get my boa to take rats, which she doesn't do voluntarily, as the back legs of the mouse (in your case the pinky) are going into the mouth put the nose of the next food item (for you a small moouse) into the snake's mouth, the snake should continue feeding on the next food item, maybe after a pause to work out what you're doing. yours looks like you should feed every 5 days.
handling: like BE says just stop handling your royal completely until feeding becomes established and predictable |
Dumerils boas, BCO hybrids, Sinder Hypo boas, cornsnakes, ratsnakes, Day Geckos
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ddm10
Yearling
United Kingdom
189 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 20:25:20
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| Have a look at the caresheet and check that everything is right. Have you got a hydrometer in the viv if not it's well worth getting one to keep the humidity between around 50-60 a little higher when shedding. if its low you can lightly mist the viv or move the water to the warm side. i leave the damp hide in there all the time aswell. if the royal is in a bigger tank then make sure there is alot of small hiding spots all over the viv in the warm and cool end. Also have patience i am a mega newbie, (in fact i only got my first snake 2 weeks ago) but i've noticed that these snakes don't do anything in a hurry! just stay calm and have patience as long as the set up is right and his feeding is right then the snake will pretty much look after himself. im sure the guys here will help you sort the problem and everything will be fine. |
ROYAL PYTHON 1.0.0 |
Edited by - ddm10 on 07/03/2009 20:30:44 |
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Gingerpony
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
2663 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 20:26:03
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here's some pics of my royals set up
as he's grown he now has bigger hides and water bowl.
as a guide to viv/faun/tub/RUB size length of viv + depth of viv = length of snake
using the dimensions of my tub, 15" + 12" = 27" so it's fine until my royal is 27" long
i cannont stress enough the urgency that you make your royals enclosure more suitable for his size. this in turn will help him get feeding again and become a healthy happy royal. sorry if it sounds harsh.
please feel free to ask us any questions at all |
Dumerils boas, BCO hybrids, Sinder Hypo boas, cornsnakes, ratsnakes, Day Geckos
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MissCat
Fully Grown Royal
1971 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 20:42:02
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But he IS feeding in this larger viv, he wouldnt in the smaller ones, that's why i got so confused with it!
anyway im feeling extremely disheartened with all this as i have obviously really damaged him in some way so if any of you want to rehome him so he can get a better life with someone who knows just what they are doing, you can have him, or at least if you wont, let me know of anyone who will. cheers.
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MissCat
Fully Grown Royal
1971 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 20:47:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackecho
Hi Miss Cat, does this happen to be the Python in a Preloved advert?
Anyway, regardless, congrats on coming to the best place for help with your Royal, we'll get you sorted out
Housing
In the wild, Royals live in disused rodent burrows and are quite agoraphobic. They get stressed in large spaces and a stressed Royal will not eat properly. Owners of other pets find it difficult to understand (and may even think it cruel), but the best housing for a Royal is a cramped space. Depending on the size of your Royal I would certainly downsize to a RUB or very small viv. Temps at around 31/32C at the hot end, down to 22-25C at the cool end.
Feeding
A Royal (even as a hatchling) will never need anything smaller than a small mouse. Pinkies and fuzzies are so small that they may not even register in the Royal's mind as food. I would offer either a small mouse or preferably a Rat Pup. Royals hunt and sense food by heat and scent as much as sight, if not more. So try not to defrost in direct contact with water, I would recommend defrosting at room temperature close to the viv so that your snake is slowly aroused by the scent. Then heat it up, either in a sandwich bag in hot water (not boiling, just hot tap) or with a hair-drier in the direction of the snake, again to arouse it. Pay particular attention to the head, making it hotter than the rest so that the Royal will strike at the head.
Shedding
As you have been doing, provide a moist hide at the cool end (this will keep it moist longer), but also always provide a hide at the warm end too so that they can choose to thermoregulate if necessary. If the shed goes badly, give a bath in water at roughly the same temp as the hot end of the viv. Then allow to run through a towel or flannel to help remove and left-over skin.
Handling
I would not handle until your Royal is feeding regularly (as hard as it may be) and then don't handle until 2 days after a feed. Royals are by nature shy and over-handling can cause stress and again, non-feeding, so handling twice a week is probably plenty for them.
Hope this helps, feel free to ask more
he's been in a large plastic "haribo" box, 4litre fish tank, a 5ltr fish tank, a 2ft beech viv and now a 3 ft glass viv.
he also has a large bowl of water that he can drink from, and can (and does) curl up in.
i brain the mice, and i warm them up next to the viv, using the sandwich bag/hot water method.
thanks for the replies so far though. |
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ddm10
Yearling
United Kingdom
189 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 20:51:57
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Don't give up now you and him have come this far! I would say if he is feeding in his larger cage and the temps and humidity is right then he should be fine in there, just make sure they are lots of hiding places and the humidity is ok. Dont panic just go through everything one by one a tweak here and there to get everything as close to perfect as you can- that doesn't mean perfect but just as close as you can achieve, as long as he's happy it will be fine. If you keep him hydrated and feed him well he will get better it just takes time. it will be worth it in the end, for both of you as he'll be even more stressed being given away!
To feed i heat the mice using a hairdrier as the water can wash the scent off. |
ROYAL PYTHON 1.0.0 |
Edited by - ddm10 on 07/03/2009 20:55:19 |
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 20:53:20
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Do you leave the food in overnight, or does he strike feed?
What is his reaction to more suitable sized foods? |
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MissCat
Fully Grown Royal
1971 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 20:53:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Gingerpony
ok i'm back, not meaning to be cruel but your snake looks seriously ill, to the point of being a welfare case
to back-up BE's points:
housing: my 08 royal is in a 15" x 12" plastic tub, enclosed on all sides except the front by a cardboard box (you don't need to use anything flash or expensive). the heat mat covers 1/3 of the floorspace and is 32*C in the warm end with 2 hides large enough for him to fit into but not overly big. i suggest you put your royal in a similar set-up as if they're easily stressed by a large enclosure and the first thing they'll do is go off their food.
feeding: if he'll only take a pinkie then try him with a small mouse immediately after. to get my boa to take rats, which she doesn't do voluntarily, as the back legs of the mouse (in your case the pinky) are going into the mouth put the nose of the next food item (for you a small moouse) into the snake's mouth, the snake should continue feeding on the next food item, maybe after a pause to work out what you're doing. yours looks like you should feed every 5 days.
handling: like BE says just stop handling your royal completely until feeding becomes established and predictable
as for the first part, see the first post i just did. :(
as for the second part, i had not though of using a box like that for a viv, it's a nice set up you have. the way you feed yours the rat is the same way i feed him the two mice.
but again i am still confused as he DOES eat in the biggest enclosure, not the smaller ones, but was still refusing anything bigger than the furry pinkie up until about 4wks ago (though admitedly i did not try following a pinkie with anything bigger, and i have not tried within the last 4wks) |
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MissCat
Fully Grown Royal
1971 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 20:57:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackecho
Do you leave the food in overnight, or does he strike feed?
What is his reaction to more suitable sized foods?
he strike feeds, though sniffs it first then draws back to strike, i too, like other people who have posted on this forum do the whole rodent ambling past thing. with larger prey he sniffs it, curls around it goes to sleep, the disappera back to his hide. i have left it in over night, but he still ignores it, i have also placed him in the origional "haribo" box (with airholes and a small bowl of water) in the airing cupboard overnight, but still no luck. |
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MissCat
Fully Grown Royal
1971 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 21:03:14
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quote:
Originally posted by ddm10
Don't give up now you and him have come this far! I would say if he is feeding in his larger cage and the temps and humidity is right then he should be fine in there, just make sure they are lots of hiding places and the humidity is ok. Dont panic just go through everything one by one a tweak here and there to get everything as close to perfect as you can- that doesn't mean perfect but just as close as you can achieve, as long as he's happy it will be fine. If you keep him hydrated and feed him well he will get better it just takes time. it will be worth it in the end, for both of you as he'll be even more stressed being given away!
To feed i heat the mice using a hairdrier as the water can wash the scent off.
thanks, i love him to bits but cant bear the thought that my own ineptitude could be causing him pain and stress!
o and the water doesnt come into contact with the mice, and i brain them after i warm them up(well by brain i mean i snip a little hole in the back of the head with scissors, i have also tried snipping a hole in the stomach area but he seemed to prefer the head hole and it was less messy)
i might steal one of my childrens toy boxes tomorrow and set it up like the one above, see if that help with keeping humidity normal, i recall when i kept a tarantula in a similar (though MUCH smaller version) i had to cover 90% of the mesh top with cling-film to help regulate the humidity. might also be that now he finally IS feeding, he might be more accepting to a smaller home? |
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MissCat
Fully Grown Royal
1971 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 21:05:11
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| oh and does ANYONE have ANY idea what is the deal with his milky eyes? is it the dehydration causing it? or has he been blinded by the awful shed? or is it something else? |
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Gingerpony
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
2663 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 21:06:30
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| it's pre-shed, he should shed within about a week of them clearing again |
Dumerils boas, BCO hybrids, Sinder Hypo boas, cornsnakes, ratsnakes, Day Geckos
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 21:06:36
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Where are you based?
Royals don't need much more humidity than 'room' humidity really. Especially if you have a moist hide in there. In fact, too much humidity will cause other problems such as Respiratory Infections. |
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Dazzetski
Yearling
United Kingdom
461 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 21:08:08
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| sofia is in a 3 foot viv, with a good 10-15 degree difference in the hot to cool side for thermo, she's eating like a a good un, if he's eating ok in the bigger viv, then keep him in it. where abouts are you, my breeder can work wonders. |
 
0.2.0 Cats (Spud & Phoebe) RIP Stevie fat man
1.1.0 Royals (Syd & Sofia)
2.2.3 Corns (Hogan, Shaggy, Sparkle, Tango, Fred, Haribo & Go Faster)
0.0.1 Columbian Rainbow Boa (Escobar)
1.1.0 Variable King Snakes (Lancelot & Guinaverre)
0.0.20 Fish |
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MissCat
Fully Grown Royal
1971 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 21:11:16
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| OH and another thing (sorry) Gingerpony, what size is your royal, mine is approx 50cm (again i haven't weighed or measured him, i will do that tommorrow and check his weight against the chart on another thread), is that sized box going to be okay for Ra, or would smaller/bigger be better. according to the care sheet the viv i have would be fine if her were an adult...but he's not so i agree i should try a smaller one, but i worry that this will cause him to stop eating again. |
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MissCat
Fully Grown Royal
1971 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 21:15:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackecho
Where are you based?
Royals don't need much more humidity than 'room' humidity really. Especially if you have a moist hide in there. In fact, too much humidity will cause other problems such as Respiratory Infections.
I am in north somerset.
he is in normal room humidity except for the moss hide and the large bowl of water.... yet he is apparently de-hydrated, hence my total confusion over the matter |
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My poorly Royal :(
