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ballgirl
Hatchling
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
 Posted - 15/01/2011 : 11:18:59
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Ok, I posted this in the Vivarium size thread, but nobody seems to be answering it there. So I thought I'd ask it again in a separate thread and see if we get any more responses.
Hi, I'm a Royal owner to be, doing my pre-purchase research, so be gentle :)
I've been reading the Viv size thread with interest as I'm trying to decide what to do. I'm not on a tight budget and want to get the best stuff I can, so I was planning on getting a 3ft viv from the start but others have said a much smaller plastic box is the way to go for a 12-18" hatchling - something like the large flat faunarium or a 9l Rub.
The way I see it though, is that a larger viv with lamp would be easier to maintain a decent hot end and cold end gradient than an 18" long plastic box with a heat mat. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not talking from experience, but I can't see how such a small space can create the kind of hot end\cold end requirements everyone says Royals need - I can just imagine the small space being the same temp all over.
As has been mentioned in the Viv Size thread, as long as there is a choice of hides that are the right size and in all parts of the viv, with plenty of foliage to break up the open spaces, I can't see the reason for a small enclosure?
Loads of people say that snakes are notorious escape artists - even Royals. Doesn't that tell us that sometimes the Viv is actually too small and that they want to have a roam about? As Benji54 says in the Viv Size thread, the wild is a large place and yes, although they choose to sit in a small burrow for hours, doesn't mean they stay there permanently. I'd like to give my Royal the choice - to roam or hide.
Wouldn't Keeping a snake in a small enclosure also limit muscle growth because they aren't able to roam and climb if they wanted to (I know they're not arboreal snakes, but I gather that sometimes they do climb)? I really don't like the thought of my snake being in a box that's only 15-17cm high - how can that be good if my 12-18 inch snake wants to have a good stretch up?
I'm being a bit selfish with this question, I know and will openly admit that, because I would rather have a nice looking viv than a plastic box. I think my arguments are very relevant ones (I could just ignore what I've read so far and do what I want) but I want to do the right thing for my snake.
So if people can actually tell me of genuine problems they've had with small Royals in a 3ft Viv, that would be a great help. I WILL go with a faunarium or RUB if people can convince me it's definitely the right way to go for the health of the snake. But the responses to this question always seem like the "stock" answer that has been handed down and I don't know if people have actually had problems personally where the size of the enclosure has been proven to be the reason. The arguments for a small enclosure just don't seem to add up without evidence, if you know what I mean....
Please don't flame me... I'm just asking because I don't understand. |
Edited by - ballgirl on 15/01/2011 11:27:14 |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 11:45:05
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quote:
Originally posted by ballgirl
The way I see it though, is that a larger viv with lamp would be easier to maintain a decent hot end and cold end gradient than an 18" long plastic box with a heat mat. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not talking from experience, but I can't see how such a small space can create the kind of hot end\cold end requirements everyone says Royals need - I can just imagine the small space being the same temp all over.
You are correct but personally (and I'll probably get a lot of people disagree here) I think Royals are much sturdier than we give them credit for, the perfect termperatures are just that "perfect" as long as there is a hot source and cold source in there your snake will be fine (within reason of course, common sense required :P)
quote:
Originally posted by ballgirl[/i
I'd like to give my Royal the choice - to roam or hide.
99.9% of Royals will tend to choose hide if the roaming space is too large, I decided to do what you want and pack the outside with loads of leaves and foliage and rocks and whatnot and it turned out my snake just couldn't stand touching those horrible fabric fake leaves so she stayed in her hide the whole time, it won't do her any harm being in her hide besides I'm guessing you'll be handling your snake when its safe and they get a lot of exercise and stretching from that.
quote:
Originally posted by ballgirl
I'm being a bit selfish with this question, I know and will openly admit that, because I would rather have a nice looking viv than a plastic box. I think my arguments are very relevant ones (I could just ignore what I've read so far and do what I want) but I want to do the right thing for my snake.
Not selfish at all, we get snakes because we like to admire them not because they need our help, they're prisoners xP
I've decided to put my babies in rubs to save space I have a 3ft vivstack arriving on january 27th but I'll be dividing it for the smaller snakes to keep them feeling safe and slowly ease more room into the vivs as they grow.
quote:
[i]Originally posted by ballgirl
Please don't flame me... I'm just asking because I don't understand.
We don't flame on this forum :) No such thing as a bad question.
So in summary, personally I don't see any reason you couldn't just jam pack a 3ft viv with plenty of objects to make it a tight squeeze for him to roam around if it takes your fancy, he always has the option to stay in his hide if he wants to. Others -will- disagree.
Of course I'd recommend having a RUB as backup incase he goes off his feeding, there has to be something to the packing a small snake in a rub theory as they DO tend to eat better :)
Goodluck with your royal :D |
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konrad1982
Yearling
United Kingdom
235 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 11:45:46
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| I was thinking about this too. It seems to be strange but everybody says that snakes feel more comfortable in smaller enclosure. It doesn't mean that you can't put your snake into big viv. It will be just more expensive for you (bulb for 3ft viv about 200W while heat mat for rub about 15W) but if it doesn't affect health of your snake everything should be fine. I would just concentrate on feeding because this may be the biggest problem. |
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reptiledanny
Old Royal - I Post too much!
United Kingdom
2106 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 11:50:23
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| i replied on the vivarium thread yesterday |
1.2 royal pythons 0.1 hog island boa 1.0 corn snake
sig made by stapey |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 12:11:07
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| Indeed Konrad, I find that as hatchlings it's important to get the feeding sorted out straight away which is why I chose to put him in a rub as they normally come from rubs when they hatch and I wanted to keep the feeding on track, but if you want to change to a viv I don't see a huge problem |
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ballgirl
Hatchling
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 12:33:40
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quote:
Originally posted by reptiledanny
i replied on the vivarium thread yesterday
Yes, you did. Sorry, maybe "nobody" was a bit of an exaggeration!
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Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
5008 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 13:17:14
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| I'm new to Royals, I only picked mine up a few days ago but he is in a 2 foot vivarium. As long as you are able to provide the right temperatures, the right humidity and appropriately sized hides then the vivarium size really doesn't matter. Personally I wouldn't go any smaller than a 2 foot vivarium but thats my opinion. |
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ballgirl
Hatchling
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 13:34:15
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Thanks for the responses so far. So it seems I'm not the only one to be thinking along these lines...
I will most definitely get a RUB or Faun just in case, but I think I'm going to see how we get on with a 3ft viv. I may well use the rub as a feeding place, rather than feeding in the viv so maybe that will help too.
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reptiledanny
Old Royal - I Post too much!
United Kingdom
2106 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 13:35:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Lotabob
I'm new to Royals, I only picked mine up a few days ago but he is in a 2 foot vivarium. As long as you are able to provide the right temperatures, the right humidity and appropriately sized hides then the vivarium size really doesn't matter. Personally I wouldn't go any smaller than a 2 foot vivarium but thats my opinion.
it does matter, u could ahve the correct size hides, and the correct temps, but your royal still needs to explore his tank, and if he does not feel comfertable enough to explore his tank becuase it is to big, then you end up with a royal that never leaves his hide.
in my opinion, and this is only my opinion, it is best to house a royal in a rub to start off with, because to me they feel more comfertable in them, and the move up in size until they are big enough to go into a 3ft viv |
1.2 royal pythons 0.1 hog island boa 1.0 corn snake
sig made by stapey |
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 14:07:34
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| I've had to move Royals to smaller enclosures in the past as they wouldn't eat in the larger one. Royals are generally agoraphobic and easily stressed, however they are all individuals and some will cope better than others. So through experience I believe its better to start them off somewhere small as they act in nature. If you were to go for a 3' viv, I'd want it so rammed full of hides/branches/foliage/tunnels etc that I'd probably not see them much anyway. |
 
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ballgirl
Hatchling
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 14:43:05
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quote:
Originally posted by reptiledanny
it does matter, u could ahve the correct size hides, and the correct temps, but your royal still needs to explore his tank, and if he does not feel comfertable enough to explore his tank becuase it is to big, then you end up with a royal that never leaves his hide.
Are you suggesting that a Royal will feel uncomfortable in an enclosure that is just twice it's own body length? Really? That can't be right, surely? I have some friends who have a 3ft viv and put an 18" hatchling in there and it really doesn't look lost.
My thoughts are that if you put an 18" snake into an 18" box, then it's tail will be in the cool end and head in the hot! I know it's doesn't work like that because they will curl up in a ball, but you can see where I'm coming from.
I'm not being deliberately argumentative, it just makes no sense to me...
Part of me wonders if these "rules" were made up by breeders because they want to justify keeping 50 adult snakes in a rack system without feeling like they're being cruel... (now that IS deliberately controversial, because I don't know what I'm talking about, but I saw a setup on youtube the other day and I couldn't help but feel sorry for the snakes. I would hope they're fine, but it rather looked like a battery hen farm to someone like me who is just starting to learn about snakes).... |
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ballgirl
Hatchling
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 14:44:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackecho
I've had to move Royals to smaller enclosures in the past as they wouldn't eat in the larger one. Royals are generally agoraphobic and easily stressed, however they are all individuals and some will cope better than others. So through experience I believe its better to start them off somewhere small as they act in nature. If you were to go for a 3' viv, I'd want it so rammed full of hides/branches/foliage/tunnels etc that I'd probably not see them much anyway.
Thanks for your reply Blackecho. Is that because you were feeding them in the viv, or were you taking them out of the viv into something else to feed and they still weren't happy? Can you elaborate please? |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 16:15:20
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| I would take an educated guess and say they weren't feeding due to the large spaces as this is the topic we're discussing. |
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prozacbear
Yearling
United Kingdom
130 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 16:18:10
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I put Guybrush straight into a 4 foot viv. The shop sold him to me when he was small in a very small rub and I placed that rub into the large viv, with the lid slightly open. With water bowls and hides inside the rub and the viv. This gave him the option of staying in his rub or exploring his viv. The next morning I found him asleep outside the rub in one of the viv hides. He never went back into his rub and has always loved having lots of space (as shown in the video in the video section).
My experience (limited as it is) has been that a selection of size appropriate hides is more important than the size of the viv, and replacing hides as they grow is cheaper than replacing rubs / vivs.
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Guybrush (royal python) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csapnto_Q5I
Cassiopeia (Brazilian rainbow boa) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5VQhPP7qVM&NR=1
Smaug (deseart iguana) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ZD_SFA8Lg
Axos & Sutekh (cats) http://youtu.be/AFCgZcHXuTU
Nessie & Nemo etc ( tropical fish) |
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GMac
Grumpy scots admin
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 16:42:45
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| I had to move my adult royal from a 3 ft viv and put into rub as he wasn't feeding at all infact we never saw him out of his hide, now hes in the rub he is feeding very well and very active in the rub, so i am assuming he feels more secure in the smaller rub than the large viv. |
Royals, Corns, Boa, Kings, Hoggy, Ratsnakes
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 16:54:00
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quote:
Originally posted by ballgirlPart of me wonders if these "rules" were made up by breeders because they want to justify keeping 50 adult snakes in a rack system without feeling like they're being cruel... (now that IS deliberately controversial, because I don't know what I'm talking about, but I saw a setup on youtube the other day and I couldn't help but feel sorry for the snakes. I would hope they're fine, but it rather looked like a battery hen farm to someone like me who is just starting to learn about snakes)....
There are no 'rules', just guidance as to what seems to suit the snakes best in general.
In the wild they slide into a small rodent burrow, eat what they want and then stay there until they need to find food again.
That's a lot more cramped than a proper sized RUB, but its what they choose. Yes, some will cope better in the larger conditions that humans want them to live in. |
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louise32
Yearling
275 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 17:16:04
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I will be starting mine off in a 9L rub then slowly move up a few rub sizes before going into a vivarium. I would rather put a young snake in a smaller space and have to move him up a few sizes than risk putting him in a big space and stressing him out.
I hope once I get to know my snake after watching him grow and seeing how he moves around spaces, that I will be able to decide what size enclouse will suite him. |
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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 18:10:31
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Guys, I'm speaking here from loads of research and personal experience...
Proper enclosure size is important in juvenile royal pythons. A 3-foot viv jacked up with as many stuff as you can is not necessarily going to make it much better.
In a 3-foot viv, your temperature gradient is wider than a 9L RUB. The snake will have to roam far to get the proper temps. Juveniles are more prone to stress than well-adjusted sub-adults/adults and more than likely will do 2 things:
1.) Roam all over the 3-foot viv in highly stressed mode looking for a way OUT.
2.) Stay in one spot - regardless of temperature - having no confidence to expose itself to find the proper temps.
I have gone through this exercise several times. My first snake was a 300g female. I didn't know any better and I put her in a 36"x18"x24" viv all decorated with loads of stuff. That snake was soooo stressed out she refused food, struck at anything that comes close, shed in pieces - even with perfect temps and humidity. She was constantly climbing the branch that we put in the viv trying to push at the lamp. I moved her to a 30"x12"x12" viv and she settled down within a week and has been a consistent feeder since.
My 2nd snake was 150g. I put him in a 30"x12"x12". He was constantly roaming the cage looking for a way out day and night. But, he was a consistent feeder. Still shed in pieces. I moved him to a 20"x10"x12" and he settled down. I moved him back to the 30"x12"x12" when he reached 500g and he was fine.
My 3rd snake was 200g. She was a "rescue" - the owner lost his job and couldn't take care of his snakes - the snake only ate twice within 6 months, so I got her for a bargain. I put her in a 20"x10"x12" and 3 days later she ate. She has been eating consistently ever since. No problems with shed, no problems with excessive roaming.
We bred our first snake last year. We hatched out 3 snakes. We put all 3 snakes in their own 20"x10"x12" enclosures (the smallest non-plastic viv available at the store) packed with stuff. All 3 went psycho. Roaming constantly trying to get OUT. I was afraid they would get hurt from climbing the sides then plopping back down when their bodies couldn't support them anymore. Needless to say, they didn't eat for a month.
I bought 3 4L RUBs with 2 hides on each. Moved them there and 2 of them ate within a week. 1 snake had to be force-fed.
The experts - Brian Barczyk, Ralph Davis, and Tim Bailey will tell you the same thing. I have asked each one of them.
My suggestion is - if you can't afford a heat mat for a RUB, put a RUB inside the 3-foot viv in the middle to get a heat gradient... much better for the snake.
P.S. Loads of newbies see their snake roaming constantly and they think it's sooo cool that their snake is "social". Check again. That is more likely a glaring sign of stress than anything. There is "good roaming" and there is "oh no, he's roaming"... you need to learn the difference. |
        
Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
Edited by - anatess on 15/01/2011 18:18:37 |
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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 18:32:54
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quote:
Originally posted by ballgirlPart of me wonders if these "rules" were made up by breeders because they want to justify keeping 50 adult snakes in a rack system without feeling like they're being cruel... (now that IS deliberately controversial, because I don't know what I'm talking about, but I saw a setup on youtube the other day and I couldn't help but feel sorry for the snakes. I would hope they're fine, but it rather looked like a battery hen farm to someone like me who is just starting to learn about snakes)....
This is a ridiculous statement. Breeders - Brian Barczyk, Ralph Davis, Tim Bailey specifically - get into this business because of their LOVE for the snakes. I have met Brian personally and you can just FEEL the excitement he exudes when talking to my 9 and 7 year old kids about how to take proper care of their snakes. And we didn't even buy anything from him! My kids are big fans of SnakeBytes that's why they talked to him for so long.
The royal python racks are better for royal pythons than your VIV! A viv is for YOU, not for the snake. Breeders use the CB-70 racks for royal pythons. That's a floor dimension of 34"x18". That's the PROPER SIZE for an adult ball python. Anything bigger than a 3-foot viv increases the chances of a stressed royal. THIS IS THEIR NATURAL INSTINCTS.
They roam their environment in the wild to look for food. Since the royals are given their food almost in a silver platter, they don't have the pressing need for roaming. They have the need for security - burrowing in rodent holes.
So yeah, it might look ugly to you, but for the snake - that's what they prefer.
It's insulting to me when you talk about the legitimate royal python breeders like callous people only out for a buck. The things they have done to promote the image of a SNAKE in the United States is almost comparable to what Steve Irwin has done for the entire animal kingdom.
Sorry for the rant, but your comment made me upset. |
Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
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reptiledanny
Old Royal - I Post too much!
United Kingdom
2106 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 18:56:16
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quote:
Originally posted by anatess
quote:
Originally posted by ballgirlPart of me wonders if these "rules" were made up by breeders because they want to justify keeping 50 adult snakes in a rack system without feeling like they're being cruel... (now that IS deliberately controversial, because I don't know what I'm talking about, but I saw a setup on youtube the other day and I couldn't help but feel sorry for the snakes. I would hope they're fine, but it rather looked like a battery hen farm to someone like me who is just starting to learn about snakes)....
This is a ridiculous statement. Breeders - Brian Barczyk, Ralph Davis, Tim Bailey specifically - get into this business because of their LOVE for the snakes. I have met Brian personally and you can just FEEL the excitement he exudes when talking to my 9 and 7 year old kids about how to take proper care of their snakes. And we didn't even buy anything from him! My kids are big fans of SnakeBytes that's why they talked to him for so long.
well said anatess!!! |
1.2 royal pythons 0.1 hog island boa 1.0 corn snake
sig made by stapey |
Edited by - reptiledanny on 15/01/2011 19:00:54 |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 19:57:40
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ballgirl has made it clear that she's not the most educated person when it comes to royal pythons so you shouldn't get upset by her lack of knowledge, she's just speaking from what she's looking at in her own way.
The same way I and most of you thought the same thing when we first saw a thousand snakes crammed into a thousand little rubs :) |
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Enclosure size for baby Royal? Maybe controversial
