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stevethornley
Hatchling
United Kingdom
69 Posts |
 Posted - 07/02/2011 : 23:14:22
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Hi everyone
First, thanks for such an informative and passionate forum! I've been lurking for a couple of weeks now to see if it would be possible for my 8-year old son to have his wish for his 8th birthday: his own snake.
He's wanted one since he was 3 but we've held off until he was old enough to take a more active role in looking after it. I realise that I'm going to have to help him in the early stages, maybe even years, and I'm cool with that thanks to the info I've gained from this forum, a couple of books from the library and spending a couple of hours chatting things over with a breeder who lives a couple of miles down the road (details found on the web... how amazing is that?!) I certainly don't consider myself knowledgable in any way but I, at least, feel that this dream is possible to be realised!
So, we've decided on a Royal Python and I'm just in the planning stages. I would like it to be a surprise so I figure that I will have to build the viv and the breeder has offered to settle the snake in to his new surroundings before we pick it up on birthday day.
I've made up a shopping list and I just wanted to check that I was on the right track before placing an order. I would be very grateful for any input before I shell out and get it potentially all wrong!
1. Viv - VivExotics LX24 like this one
http://www.bluelizardreptiles.co.uk/housing/vivariums/5032656152425
2. I would like to put in a ceramic bulb but I'm unsure of the wattage I would require for a viv this size. I've seen postings saying that 100W would be enough but I'm just not sure. I know I'll need to find an appropriate guard.
3. Habistat Pulse Proportional stat like this one http://www.bluelizardreptiles.co.uk/reptileheating/thermostats/5027407000056
4. Lighting - I've read things about flourescents flickering stressing snakes and I quite like the idea of these moon lights:
http://www.bluelizardreptiles.co.uk/reptilelighting/bulbs/4040483638013
but I'm unsure (a) if this would be bright enough to light the viv sufficiently and (b) whether this should be on 24/7 or just come on at night via a timer or somesuch? Can anyone help with this?
5. Substrate: I was liking the look of Orchid bark. I saw someone was recommending B&Q kiddies play bark which is everso cheap but it's pine-based and I thought that was toxic to snakes, no? And, if Orchid bark is OK, do I go course or fine? Decisions, decisions!
6. Hides & a water bowl - I know I need a couple of hides but can anyone recommend a good size for a 6-month old baby Royal? And what size of water bowl? I know that shops will be free with this sort of advice but I wanted to get it from the experts first!
7. Other stuff: no doubt I'll go a bit mad with a nice Java branch and some greenery - I've been really inspired by what I've seen on this forum, and of course a couple of digital thermometers to keep a check on things. Have I forgotten anything obvious?
Finally, if anyone can give some particular advice for how I encourage a tremendously enthusiastic 8-year old boy to love and learn about his new arrival then I would love to hear it 
From an equally excited Dad - thanks in anticipation.
Steve
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0.1.0 Royal Python - Kate
0.1.0 Beagle - Poppy
0.0.11 tiny tropical fish - not named |
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Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
5008 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 00:11:09
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Wow one lucky kid, I'd have loved a snake at that age. You've done your home work, you know what you getting yourself into what else can I say but its a pleasure to read a post from someone who has done 100% of what you should before getting a snake.
I would say that my Royal hates white light, he won't come out of his hide until the room lights are off or dimmed very very low. I use an Infra red bulb as a heat source and viewing light, the IR doesn't bother him at all though. They do need a day/night cycle of white light but a window in the room can provide that. Ceramic heat bulbs are a good heat source, I would say 100W should be fine for a 2 foot vivarium though a little tip, I always keep the next size up bulb in reserve just in case we hit a cold snap like we had over xmas, came in very handy with my corn snake, I just couldn't keep the heat in the house though coming into spring thats more of a before winter purchase.
Pine is a no no with snakes, I use beech chips (corn snake) & orchid bark (royal) and both have their advantages as explained in the care sheet.
Any questions no matter how trivial you think they may be throw them up on here and someone will answer them for you. And finally a warning. Snakes are addictive. You buy 1 now, I give you 3 months tops until your planning the next one. |
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Royalbob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
1115 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 00:46:14
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Hiya steve, well i bought my nephew his first royal when he was 10 and he done great. Kids just absorb info as you'll already know. i think the hardest thing was to educate him about was patience (not easy) he thought it was going to grow into an anaconda after 1 feed lol. leaving it in peace was hard for him at first as well, so i made a rota for feeding and handling days and he soon got the hang of it. Ok let's go through your number points.
1. Royals like small spaces and a 6 month old royal might find a 2ft by 1.5ft viv quite big. This can stress them out and put them off feeding etc. There's a couple ways round this first is to really make the viv busy. Put at least 3 hides in there with lots of plants and branches for cover. This will help him feel safe. The other method is to house youngsters in R.U.B's. here's a link of what you'll need for that http://www.theroyalpython.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1451
2.Ceramic bulb with guard attatched to a PP thermostat is a perfect combo. 100w definitely enough for 2FT viv. should be fine with a 75w
3.PP stat perfect.
$. A moon light should be fine as it's low wattage. i used a similar led in red for my nephews R.U.B and it didn't bother the snake at all. Just use it at night when viewing then shut off and leave him in complete peace. They dont need any additional light or uv as there nocturnal. natural sunlight from a window and our photo period is fine.
5. Substrate NO to pine. For a hatchling i would use kitchen roll, newspaper, aspen or orchid bark.
6. hides should be nice and snug so he squeezes in, they love it. I use exo terror hides. water bowl big enough for snake.
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1.0 Enchi butter
1.0 Enchi X Pastel
1.0 Fire het clown
1.0 Bumblebee
1.0 pinstripe
0.1 Enchi Fire
0.1 Pastel calico
0.1 Yellow belly Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon pastel poss het clown
0.1 Het clown
0.1 Yellow belly
0.1 Green Mojave
0.1 HC Albino
0.2 Normals
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 06:45:24
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I am all for children having snakes, I'm just not 100% sure a Royal is the right choice, I suppose it depends on the individual child, will they want to handle it every day, show it off to their friends every time they come round, get upset when it doesn't eat for a few months?
Only you know him, but if so, a Corn Snake is pretty much indestructible in comparison. |
 
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 11:36:30
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I wish I'd had a dad like you!
Just adding my 2 cents - can't improve on what everyone else has said.
Yes, as BE has said, royals are very shy, they like plenty of peace and quiet. They all have their own personality, and are so placid (as a rule) but extroverts they're not. Sometimes kids have visited my snakes, little hands reaching out to stroke Buffy the large Carolina corn, which Buffy has taken in her stride. But my royals wouldn't care for that, not unless they'd got to know the child first.
However, a young royal is much much easier to handle than a young corn. A hatchling royal is a slow-moving little dumpling; a hatchling corn is a manic supercharged bootlace that, blink, and where the hell's she gone?? Plus they are expert escapologists - all snakes are, as a rule, but baby corns ...omg.(I never lost one, but had a few scary moments.)
Also I have to say, corn snakes are messier. Royals may wee on you sometimes, but as a rule they take a dump less frequently than corns, and usually in a private corner. Corns have no shame, they go at least once a week and seem very proud of unloading it in a human lap. No use waiting the statutory 48 hours after feeding or until the smelly pile appears in the viv. Corn snakes have spare tanks ...eww! (I love them but I'm very careful these days ...)
So there are pros and cons.
If I were to choose a first snake for a child, I'd suggest a young adult corn first (more outgoing, much larger and more placid than a hatchling; they usually grow fast) and, depending on the child's ability to empathise with the royal's more retiring personality, a royal as a second snake (umm yes, trust us, you will end up with two! At least!)
But that's just my opinion.
As to the 2' viv, an adult royal will need a 3' eventually, and always lots and lots of hides and cover. Rubs are much easier to clean and much cheaper, but you need a very warm room in winter, as they don't keep in heat as well as vivs. I use the red heatlamps (proper red glass reptile nocturnal lamps) or IR, guarded and statted of course, and my snakes are fine with those. I like aspen substrate but omg is it messy! I even find it in my socks! It looks good though and the snakes like to burrow in it. Hides should be a tight fit - this sounds odd, but both my corns and royals love a place where they can cram themselves in with scarcely a millimetre to spare. If you provide a choice of many hides, the snake will usually choose the smallest.
Sorry - this is turning into an epistle!
Wishing you and your son the very best and much enjoyment and pleasure from the new snake(or snakes)! |
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Edited by - n/a on 08/02/2011 11:38:32 |
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Royalbob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
1115 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 13:30:45
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| Think it really comes down to education and supervision. I know my nephew was a few years older than your son but it didn't take long for him to understand that every animal is different. He quite a timid guy anyway who listens more than he talks so maybe a royal just suits his personality. He knows rough and tumble time is for the dog and quite or watching time is for the royal. I handle my snakes once or twice a week but some handle there's more. As bats said it also depends on the royal as well. |
1.0 Enchi butter
1.0 Enchi X Pastel
1.0 Fire het clown
1.0 Bumblebee
1.0 pinstripe
0.1 Enchi Fire
0.1 Pastel calico
0.1 Yellow belly Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon pastel poss het clown
0.1 Het clown
0.1 Yellow belly
0.1 Green Mojave
0.1 HC Albino
0.2 Normals
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Blackecho
Royal Python Admin
United Kingdom
11327 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 13:50:59
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| My 6 year old has to clean out a couple of snakes a week to earn his pocket money and he loves them. Every child is different and every snake is, I wasn't trying to put a dampner on things |
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Royalbob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
1115 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 16:13:04
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| Don't think it was a dampner BE, just the truth. My nephew had to learn a lot of patients. He thought his was going to starve and die when it missed 1 meal. |
1.0 Enchi butter
1.0 Enchi X Pastel
1.0 Fire het clown
1.0 Bumblebee
1.0 pinstripe
0.1 Enchi Fire
0.1 Pastel calico
0.1 Yellow belly Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon pastel poss het clown
0.1 Het clown
0.1 Yellow belly
0.1 Green Mojave
0.1 HC Albino
0.2 Normals
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hodgie
Fully Grown Royal
United Kingdom
1197 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 16:54:38
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| Dont know if my experience will count for much but from the Royals that i have, i would get a female as they dont tend to be so shy and timid, all of my females appear to be far more confident, they will willingly come out of their hides/vivs/rubs when i go into the room and open up for cleaning or just to have a look at them where as my males just retreat into their hides and are alot more timid. |
Royals owned "lots"
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 17:07:54
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Yes!
I've found that too. I bought Saada secondhand from an 18 year old guy (who had a younger brother) and she came straight out and coiled on my hand, tongue flicking, confident as you like.
Surahi too came to me as an adult and coiled round my neck and went to sleep the minute she met me. How could I refuse a snake who chose me?
Shahi, (his royal highness) has always been very very dignified and reserved, despite coming to me as a little tiddler. I know my place! |
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stevethornley
Hatchling
United Kingdom
69 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 20:48:12
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Thanks everyone for your replies. I knew I could count on you from how you've helped other newbies. You are so welcoming to your community when it would be easy to be guarded with your overwhelming knowledge. You are certainly educating me and for that, a thousand thank yous!
So, from what you have all said, I'm not a million miles off. Blackecho - you're right re: corn versus Royal, I'd thought that myself. The thing is that, even once I explained all the 'down' sides of Royals, he still really wanted a Royal. My philosophy now is "well we've come this far, we may as well get him what he really wants!". (Not that he always gets his own way, I hasten to add. Has wanted a DS for years and I have said "no" - I'd far rather he further his enthusiasm for things natural. Steve Backshall has a lot to answer for!)
I think the comment that sums it up is Royalbob's when he says: "He knows rough and tumble time is for the dog and quite or watching time is for the royal" - hits the nail on the head, I reckon.
The only thing I'm unsure about now is whether I should go for a ceramic or an IR bulb given that the viv will be going in a dark corner (my son's bedroom is south facing and I would hate to think of the temperatures behind the glass if the viv was in direct sunlight) and I would imagine that it would be pretty dark in there and hard to see anything.
Stupid question coming up: does the IR bulb give off light that we humans can see?! And would it be enough to see the viv and snake by? Go for 100W for this too? And am I right in thinking that I'd need to change the type of stat that I use? Does the IR option effectively kill 2 birds with 1 stone by providing heat and light 24/7?
I still like the idea of a bit of white light but I don't want to go stressing the snake out if there's another solution to seeing what's going on in there, even if it does mean that you only see a heap of bark, stones and some fake leaves a bit better. Maybe a moonlight that comes on for a couple of hours only before the lad's bedtime?
Thanks again everyone. You've been so helpful and welcoming.
Steve
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0.1.0 Royal Python - Kate
0.1.0 Beagle - Poppy
0.0.11 tiny tropical fish - not named |
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 21:05:13
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That's cool - a royal it is, eh? Yes, it really is down to your own preferences.
Snakes can't see red light (or blue either, I believe) - but you will be able to see the IR light. I have 2 royal vivs in my bedroom, and it doesn't bother me - it's a very mild light. My bedroom too is south facing but additional heat from the sun will be dealt with by the stats. Unless I just draw the curtains if temps do get too high. The light from a red bulb is fine to watch the snake by - it's very restful in the early hours, to wake and see them prowling about!
Keep in touch about how you go on, excited for you.
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 21:09:38
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I've always thought snakes are a great pet for children as most children (myself included a few years back when I was classified as one) lose interest in pets pretty quickly, which is completely unacceptable with a dog who needs a lot of attention. A snake is basically part of the furniture if they're interested they can handle it occasionally and feeding time is always a childs favourite but if they begin lose interest when the snake is no longer new then it doesn't effect the snake 1 way or another long as the thing is being given water and a healthy environment he's happy by himself. :D
Sorry if this is out of place in this thread I read BE's comment a while ago and meant to post but was busy so posting it now :)
Edit: Completely missed out on being polite there my apologies!
Welcome to the forum :D You've really done your research and I hope you all enjoy the snake ^^ |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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Edited by - Kelfezond on 08/02/2011 21:10:14 |
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Oh How Original
Yearling
United Kingdom
378 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 00:03:35
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Sorry this isnt really any input.
But I think its fantastic to see people willing to take the time before actually buying the snake and making sure they have the right set up and right skill and things to look after it.
Bravo to you sir! |
When on the Forums, always be nice, stick to the rules and help when you can.
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Royalbob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
1115 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 00:18:47
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| Hiya steve, yeh for upcoming royal. As Lilith said plus a couple of points. The choice of ceramic vs I.R bulb is basically heat vs light and heat. During the day there will be enough natural light. At night if you went for the ceramic a low wattage bedroom lamp would be enough to see inside the viv and not disturb him. Or the I.R bulb would give off enough light to watch his night time maneuvers. As Lilith said the light is still dim enough where it shouldn't disturb your son or just cover the front of the viv to block the light. here's a video link showing how bright it would generally be. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoChddfuoao If you go for a I.R bulb you would need a dimming thermostat, this just dim's to cool the viv and brightens to warm it back up. A pulse stat pulses the current so you would have a pulsing bulb (not good). 100w in either would be more than ample. A moon light bulb won't be any brighter than a I.R bulb. Just a quick point as this has come up before. If you go for the I.R make sure it is I.R and not just a red heat bulb there's a big difference. Happy shopping and ask away. |
1.0 Enchi butter
1.0 Enchi X Pastel
1.0 Fire het clown
1.0 Bumblebee
1.0 pinstripe
0.1 Enchi Fire
0.1 Pastel calico
0.1 Yellow belly Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon pastel poss het clown
0.1 Het clown
0.1 Yellow belly
0.1 Green Mojave
0.1 HC Albino
0.2 Normals
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Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
5008 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 00:38:16
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If you do decide to go with an IR bulb then a pulse thermostat will turn it into a vivarium disco, it will flash or indeed pulse like its 1999. A dimming thermostat is whats needed with a bulb (if you do eventually decide to go with ceramic bulb at some point the dimming stat can run them too), my dimming stats hold a near perfect temperature and you can pick up some bargains on ebay. IR is visible light, if your boy is used to a dark room at night it might get on his nerves, though as an 8 year old I'd have loved a snake night light, I have my viv in the living room and I barely even notice it, IR is a softer light than white light. If you decide to go with IR then a moon light would most likely just be drowned out so I wouldn't bother & thats a few bob you can put towards decor.
Corn snakes are great but they do take more cleaning out and as hatchlings they are like holding a rocket powered bar of soap, Royals just roll into a ball when you pick them up or just coil round your hand, much calmer. But as said, they are addictive so just add corn snake to the list, they are a great little snake.
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sandi
Sub Adult
787 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 15:09:50
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Hi Steve,
Love your attitude! Your boy will be made up and no doubt grow up with a great regard for the natural world which in my mind is the most important education you can give. Hats off to you.
Cant add much really as everything i wanted to say has been covered! Just one thing, in a 2ft viv a 100w IR may be over the top, I have a 6ow IR in a 3 ft viv and it is fine except for in very cold snaps. I have a 100w as a stand by for winter, i think lotabob has said the same already. Sinse using IR bulbs i find Florence is more active during MY waking hours! She is also less aware of the lighting in our sitting room, or so it seems.
Best of luck! |
0.1.0 Royal Python - Florence
1.0.0 Boa Constrictor - Boris
1.1.0 Alaunts - Willow & Brochan |
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stevethornley
Hatchling
United Kingdom
69 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 19:07:14
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Hi again everyone, and thank you so much for your advice and input. I really do hugely appreciate it.
I've been spending this week on this forum and youtube (thanks Royalbob for the link) to finalise the shopping list for the baby Royal's new home and I think I now have it pretty much sorted.
I've got an idea for the heat/light set-up that I wanted to run past you all on this thread as I can't find any reference to it anywhere... I'm sure there's stuff out there but I'm just not searching under the right key words.
I quite liked the way that some set-ups on youtube were lit, such as this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efsABgYl1Lg&feature=relate
or particularly this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsvxl4adMBk
(is that snake just a show-off?)
and wondered about using a sunglow bulb to provide heat & light during the daylight hours and an IR bulb to provide a dim red light, invisible to snakey, and heat during the night.
Then I got thinking - would it be possible to switch between the 2 automatically? Got onto the Habistat website and they do a sun/moon switch which looked like it would do this switching for me. But hang on: the dimmer stat would have to go *before* the sun/moon switch, otherwise I would have to buy 2 stats! I'm indebted to Peter Foulsham at EuroReps who came back with 2 swift emails after my query posted on the Habistat website to say that "Yes" you could go STAT-SUN&MOON-2 x BULBS ie that the Sun&Moon switch would work OK on reduced power if the dimmer stat was only supplying a small current due to near the set temp.
So what I wondered was whether or not anyone else had tried this or could provide any input as to whether or not this is a good idea in the first place? I'm planning on putting the 2 bulbs on a baton bulb holder screwed to the roof of the viv with a ProRep delux guard protecting them both individually. To summarise, the idea is to get the same temperature using 2 different light effects (one daylight, one night time) which switches automatically. I hope that makes sense.
I'm planning on providing a heap of 'cover' with a log, fake greenery and 3 or even 4 hides and, of course, a water bowl.
Any input over the weekend would be very helpful as I need to get on and get the bits together. And all in secret for the little lad - we're still planning on it being a surprise!
And any suggestions as to how we should do the 'reveal' on the morning of March the 1st would be very welcome! Make it an unofficial competition and I'll take a photo of 'boy with viv' or possibly 'boy with snake' if my settling in plan goes OK with the breeder.
Thanks again team.
Steve
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0.1.0 Royal Python - Kate
0.1.0 Beagle - Poppy
0.0.11 tiny tropical fish - not named |
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Royalbob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
1115 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 22:51:25
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| Very american. way over lit glass fish tanks and mesh roofs. 3 big no no's in my book. |
1.0 Enchi butter
1.0 Enchi X Pastel
1.0 Fire het clown
1.0 Bumblebee
1.0 pinstripe
0.1 Enchi Fire
0.1 Pastel calico
0.1 Yellow belly Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon pastel poss het clown
0.1 Het clown
0.1 Yellow belly
0.1 Green Mojave
0.1 HC Albino
0.2 Normals
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Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
5008 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 23:03:38
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I dont like using aquariums for snake either. Too exposed, specially for shy royals. How they keep heat and humidity in them with a mesh roof I'll never know. No offence to the americans but their setups and even more so their feeding techniques gets right on my nerves and they have over run youtube with live feeding videos, in the wild thats fine but in captivity just cruel (in the UK a live feeding video is illegal). Anyway getting a bit off topic there, the decor is nice, and will help make your royal secure if you get something similar but a vivarium is so much easier to heat and keep humid. I'm about to invest in a overhaul of decor in my 2 vivariums, I can't wait but dont look forward to the bill.
Oh the habistat sun/moon thingy is an expensive timer, It doesn't switch from one bulb to another as far as I'm aware. I use digital programmable sockets out of tesco, I think they were £6 each, as the IR is on 24/7 I'm referring to my corn setup, its light goes off at sunset. |
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Edited by - Lotabob on 11/02/2011 23:06:49 |
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GMac
Grumpy scots admin
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 19:19:28
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do agree with the above regarding the glass tank and the mesh roof not ideal for a royal.
quote:
Originally posted by Lotabob
I. No offence to the americans but their setups and even more so their feeding techniques gets right on my nerves and they have over run youtube with live feeding videos, in the wild thats fine but in captivity just cruel (in the UK a live feeding video is illegal).
Can we just please remember that feeding live is acceptable in the USA and is just part of their snake keeping culture, therefore posting live feeding vids on youtube will happen. If it does get up your nose just dont watch them. |
Royals, Corns, Boa, Kings, Hoggy, Ratsnakes
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Royal Python for my 8-year old's birthday
