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acd1984
Sub Adult
United Kingdom
687 Posts |
 Posted - 29/02/2012 : 21:42:51
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| And is it more humane than live feeding (from the preys pov) |
1.0.0 Lesser - Helios
2.0.0 Normal - George & Kairo
1.0.0 Mojave - Bolt
0.1.0 Mojave - Roxi
1.0.0 Leopard Gecko - Leo
0.0.1 Crocodile gecko - Pheonix
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 29/02/2012 : 22:05:11
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Here is a vid -
Warning graphic content -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1mIBYj5q8w
I did have a better vid bookmarked but it's been withdrawn. Basically the correct amount of co2 anaesthetises the rodents; more and they die without waking up, so it's pretty gentle. First their breathing accelerates, then it slows, and they die.
I don't agreed with the way he drops the rats into a crowded box, and then plays music over the action as if he's done something exciting. He's had to kill rats to feed snakes ok - should have treated them with more dignity, but as an illustration, shows what has to be done.
Never good to have to see something die, but I do believe it's more humane than live feeding which is fast when the snake is efficient, but have seen live feeding vids where things don't always happen so fast, with harm to snake or rodent. |
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Edited by - n/a on 29/02/2012 22:06:45 |
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acd1984
Sub Adult
United Kingdom
687 Posts |
Posted - 29/02/2012 : 22:18:44
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| Iv always been against live feeding (unless necessary) but I never gave any thought to if frozen was really better. So thanks bats. Im glad its painless |
1.0.0 Lesser - Helios
2.0.0 Normal - George & Kairo
1.0.0 Mojave - Bolt
0.1.0 Mojave - Roxi
1.0.0 Leopard Gecko - Leo
0.0.1 Crocodile gecko - Pheonix
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Evolution Morphs
Old Royal - I Post too much!
United Kingdom
2265 Posts |
Posted - 29/02/2012 : 22:25:11
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Mine are killed via gas chamber
I know this as I turn the gas on ;| |
now on facebook
Royal Pythons
http://www.facebook.com/EvolutionMorphs
Western Hognose |
Edited by - Evolution Morphs on 29/02/2012 22:43:42 |
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Tawfik47
Fully Grown Royal
Czech Republic
1584 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2012 : 16:59:31
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I use live prey method because there's no frozen rats/mouses around.
I prefer this method more than killing the rodent before giving it to the snake ,just because i think it's the nature way they was created on and always something bad happen when humans interfere  |
1.0.0 Common Boa - Revo CB13
I had a royal python (Blitz) for two years for those who are wondering what I'm doing here with my boa :D |
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Kelfezond
The bearded one
United Kingdom
4803 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2012 : 17:09:12
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| I personally don't mind which way mine are fed, I feed frozen because it's readily available and I don't particularly like rats so wouldn't enjoy breeding them. But if live food wwas available at my local reptile shop for the same price i'd probably switch to live to save time, effort and have a better feeding result for my snakes. I think it's a case of if you can seperate yourself from the prey. |
\v/ Click me for Kelfezond Reptiles Facebook Page! \v/
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2012 : 17:21:33
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Ah, sorry Tawfik, didn't mean to criticise live feeding when you've got no option. And your Blitz is very efficient and well supervised - in that case the hammy dies just as fast as with co2. In your place I'd do the same, but in the UK we're spoilt with the availability of the frozen rats and mice lollies.
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Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
5008 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2012 : 20:04:07
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I do have a small issue with any animal been mass produced for food even if its humanely killed its the quality of life that bothers me. I think D3llboy actually has the right idea, he has the control over quality of life, I'm sure his squeakers live a better life than the mass produced ones we buy in shop and whether fed live or pre killed I think that's the better way to do it. Just to tie up my thoughts on it I have quoted myself from TCS on a live feeding debate.
quote:
Originally posted by lotabob
I dont think I've ever commented on live feeding before (though dont quote me on that) so I shall share my views on it, its quite simple as i see it, predators eat other animals. Most animals are built extremely well to kill their prey in the quickest way possible with the smallest risk to themselves and snakes are no different. I don't see it as cruel or irresponsible either snakes are built to kill, they have more muscle mass than they would ever need to move or climb, this is purely for the kill, they have a layer of armour with their scales to protect their skin and soft tissues and their teeth face backwards for holding onto moving prey. They do kill their prey quicker than we could in the humane ways used on our frozen food.
I buy frozen mice and rats for my snakes and have absolutely no idea where they come from or the conditions they live in so is that cruel? It might be. Someone breeding and bringing up their own food for live feeding are giving them the very best life possible for a prey item and the snake will see to its death in a very quick way so quality of life and speed of death makes that a far better option for the mouse and I amire them for the time they devote to their animals.
There is also the point of I live feed crickets to my Gecko and my Tarantula, The Gecko kills them very slowly, by crushing their heads, and my Tarantula just holds onto them and punches them full of holes injecting venom but thats not a fast death either, does that make this practice cruel? I don't think it is, my crickets get looked after very well while they are alive. What makes feeding mice so controversial and yet feeding insects totally acceptable?
There will always be the debate of is it right or wrong but if its done right and responsibly then really there are no issues legal or morally. I don't live feed but thats not saying I never will, I have a Royal Python and sometimes situations arise where its required to live feed (this can arise with any snake, it is something to consider before getting one) so if that situation ever arises then I will do what is best for all the animals involved.
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Evolution Morphs
Old Royal - I Post too much!
United Kingdom
2265 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2012 : 20:15:58
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Thanks bob we like to think we give them the quality of life they deserve as feeders
We sell as pets that's our first target
and buy frozen from our local wholesaler with the money we make
or bedding , food
They always have water / food every day and there bedings chanced once a week
Like you say I know that they have been looked after
Sometimes we can't not keep up demand for the royals and do have to buy from a wholesaler of mammals
And the rats and mice come from Germany as far as I know
We also breed feeder mice but there not playing ball at the moment there eating more of the baby's than we're getting
That and I've read mice dont do so well in the winter breeding
So coming spring/summer ;) |
now on facebook
Royal Pythons
http://www.facebook.com/EvolutionMorphs
Western Hognose |
Edited by - Evolution Morphs on 01/03/2012 20:17:47 |
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JanieW
Old Royal - I Post too much!
United Kingdom
2279 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2012 : 20:25:48
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If there was no option other than feed live rodents, I doubt i'd keep snakes, no in fact I know I wouldn't.
I refused to follow my dad into a scientific career as it involved experiments on mice. When we kept a croft, breeding sheep, cattle and pigs..I shall never forget when I delivered the pigs to the slaughter house..I foolishly glanced to the back corner...
I know snakes eat live rodents, lizards etc. in the wild, but there is no way I could place a live rodent in as food.
That's just me lol and in no way is my view meant as a slight :) |
Peoples Of Middle Earth:
Bert (Staffy) , named after Tolkien's stone Troll
Popeye, African Grey
Gimli (Son Of Gloin), Baby Beardie
Slinky, Baby Royal Python
Fëanor..Baby Mexican Common Boa
Casper 2011 Male Ghost Corn Snake **RIP**
Hoard of Orcs (Dubia Roach Colony)
Pearl & Ivory--African Giant Albino Land Snails
Ra, Taiwanese Beauty Snake
Henry, Western Hognose *Missing*
Pippin, Coastal X Diamond Carpet Python
Elanor, Pastel Royal
Timmy, Western Hognose
Flake, Calico male royal, Eowyn, Arabesque Boa |
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2012 : 21:03:32
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I've gathered from various sources that adult rats may not actually live very long; terminal health problems seem to be prevalent.
Plus a rodent sold for snake food needs to be well fed to reach the desired weight and condition for commercial sale (and for that 'product' to be competitive in that market) in the fastest time possible. Plus overcrowding/neglect is going to be detrimental to getting the animals into top condition.
I'm not saying a life as a rodent destined for the co2 chamber and snake food is an ideal existence, but there may be worse fates, such as laboratory fodder or a bad pet home? |
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acd1984
Sub Adult
United Kingdom
687 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 19:15:52
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i like to think that animals that we eat are treated right before served up on our plates, just like i hope that the rats/mice are given a good life before they are snake food whether it be frozen or live.
so live feeding has its advantages like quality of life rather than a battery of rats to the slaughter (dependant on owner i guess).
and live feeding is clearly more natural, but is it live feeding that people are repelled by or (as i suspect) is it the manner of the keeper that makes it hard to deal with, for instance some videos on youtube are clearly using live feeding as a form of entertainment and while i dont disagree with filming a live feed, for a snake to be effectivly cheered on as it kills its prey in my opinion is vulgar. |
1.0.0 Lesser - Helios
2.0.0 Normal - George & Kairo
1.0.0 Mojave - Bolt
0.1.0 Mojave - Roxi
1.0.0 Leopard Gecko - Leo
0.0.1 Crocodile gecko - Pheonix
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 20:29:37
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Yes indeed - I used to breed rabbits for food and felt home (and very swift and hopefully considerate) killing was kinder than shipping the bewildered creatures to a 'professional' slaughterer.
As live feeding in the UK is technically frowned on (it's illegal to feed live but also illegal to allow a snake who will only feed on live to starve?) it's far better to feed f/t rodents - also a snake who will only feed on live might one day have to be rehomed in emergency and the new owner might not be able to cope with live feeding and the snake might refuse to eat f/t and starve.
Plus professionally killed frozen/thawed rodents, it has to be said, are much easier to store for most snake keepers; snake convenience food in fact. But I really would like to breed my own rodents and prekill but, in common with most snake keepers, I don't have the space and facilities so have to order rodents from online suppliers.
I must say here, where do the brave youtube video merchants get their rodents from before they film the creature being constricted by the snake? Doubt if all of them have bred the rodent themselves.
I really would like to raise rodents in the best possible circs (which means the best possible quality food for the snakes) and prekill in the gentlest and most stress free way and feed freshly to my snakes. That is herp keeper's Utopia I guess, and a decent life, while it lasts, for the rodents themselves.
Maybe someday ... |
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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2012 : 18:17:46
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Frozen rats are available here just as easily as live. I don't buy either one.
I raise my own rats. That's how I prefer to promote the cycle of life. My rats live a happy life - well, as happy as they can be under my care. They get fed to the snake live as if they were out in the jungles of Africa. I raise African rats which is the natural prey of the royal python.
You know how a royal is a finicky eater, right? A lot of times, people who feed frozen end up throwing the rat down the trash heap because the snake decided not to eat for weeks at a time. I see that as more of a sad state of affairs for the rat than me feeding my snake a live rat who gets to live happily for another week or even a month when the snakes are not hungry. Having my rats chasing each other down the paper towel tubes is much more fun than sitting in a freezer dead... or in a trash heap even. They are super duper cute.
By the way, African rats have an average lifespan of about 2.5 years. I've been raising them since 2008. I keep my breeding pairs for pets so, they all die of old age. I notice that the females live shorter lives than males - right around 2 years. All my breeding pairs have lived at least 2 years. No prevalent health issues. If they would, then they get to take a trip to the vet. I haven't needed to take any of them in yet.
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Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
Edited by - anatess on 06/03/2012 18:19:55 |
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Lotabob
Royal Python Moderator
United Kingdom
5008 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2012 : 19:08:53
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| Anatess I admire your devotion to your prey items your snakes get the home cooked meal, mine get the TV dinner. I wish I could do something like this I just dont have the time or space but I think you have the perfect set up for both rat and snake. |
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acd1984
Sub Adult
United Kingdom
687 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2012 : 23:11:11
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| That's great Anatess, it is a shame when I have to throw a rat away that has given its life for food, I think your a good example of how a responsible owner deals with live feeding |
1.0.0 Lesser - Helios
2.0.0 Normal - George & Kairo
1.0.0 Mojave - Bolt
0.1.0 Mojave - Roxi
1.0.0 Leopard Gecko - Leo
0.0.1 Crocodile gecko - Pheonix
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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2012 : 18:25:42
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If it is in the realm of possibility there (I know there are UK laws that may not allow you to do it), try raising some. I have TONS of tips for you that makes everything super easy!
The trick here is to get African soft-fur rats (ASF - multimammates). These guys are hamsters with a tail! They're super cute. The reason why I chose this particular one is because it is PERFECT for royals! ASFs have the good things about mice and the good things about rats. They don't get as big as the common rat but they are bigger than a mouse. So, they could live their lives to the maximum age and never outgrow your adult royal! You can't do that with a common rat (you have to feed them off by 4 months of age, otherwise, they get too big). And a mouse will require a bigger colony because you'll have to feed multiple mice to an adult royal.
Another thing is the smell... ASFs take after the rat that has a milder pee smell than mice. You'll have to clean a mouse condo every 3 days to keep the smell down. You can go with a weekly cleaning of an ASF condo.
And another thing is that ASFs produce an average of 12 babies every 3 weeks (more while the breeding pair is younger, then it starts to decline around 1 year of age). You only need 1 breeding pair to maintain up to 4 royals.
I have 6 royals. I have 2 breeding pairs. So, I only have 7 units in my ASF condo - 2 units housing 1 breeding pair each. 2 units of females, 2 units of males, and one empty clean unit ready for occupancy. My ASF condo is a "high rise" made up of 7 cement mixing tubs (I built it myself using detailed instructions from the Internet) set in drawers. It has a "food hopper" that I only have to fill twice a week and it has a gravity-fed water system that uses a 5-gallon bucket water reservoir that I only have to clean out and refill once a month.
Every week, this is my routine: I open an occupied tub and transfer all the ASFs to the empty tub. I then dump all the toys into a 5 gallon bucket of water with 1/8 cup of bleach. I scrape out the bedding to a trash bin then spray the tub with water from the water spigot set to "jet". I wipe the tub with paper towels (it doesn't have to be perfectly dry) and then fill with about 1.5 inches of kiln-dried pine bedding. I take the toys out of the bucket, shake it to get most of the water out, put it in the tub. Done. I then open up another dirty occupied tub, transfer the residents to the newly cleaned tub and clean out like before. This whole process takes me about 30 minutes for all 6 tubs on a regular week. It takes a little more than that every 3 weeks when new babies are born because then I have to move the older babies to the male/female tubs which requires some identification of body parts.
The high rise unit is about 2 feet by 3 feet by 6 feet tall. Fits in a corner of my patio.
They are super fun to watch and play with, although you gotta be careful because they can be very nippy! |
Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
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n/a
deleted
7384 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2012 : 18:40:20
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Sounds cool!
No, there are no UK laws that forbid us to breed our own rodents, so far as I know. I don't think prekilling or even live feeding if the snake consistently refused prekilled, would be prosecutable as long as the keeper was discreet and responsible and above all caring.
If I had the space I'd breed my own rodents and prekill and freeze any surplus (freezing would also be an alternative to discarding refused prey too; I would prefer to prekill rather than let a snake become accustomed to live feeding, as, in the UK, if that snake had to go to another home, then there could be difficulties if it would only feed on live.)
Ah, Utopia ... |
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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2012 : 18:51:08
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quote:
Originally posted by BurnedAtTheStake
Sounds cool!
No, there are no UK laws that forbid us to breed our own rodents, so far as I know. I don't think prekilling or even live feeding if the snake consistently refused prekilled, would be prosecutable as long as the keeper was discreet and responsible and above all caring.
If I had the space I'd breed my own rodents and prekill and freeze any surplus (freezing would also be an alternative to discarding refused prey too; I would prefer to prekill rather than let a snake become accustomed to live feeding, as, in the UK, if that snake had to go to another home, then there could be difficulties if it would only feed on live.)
Ah, Utopia ...
That's the cool thing about ASFs over common rat. You don't have to kill/freeze excess! They can just live in your ASF condo for as long as their lifespans. They won't ever outgrow your royal. Every winter, my snakes go on a fast for about 4-6 weeks or so. This is also usually the time when my breeding pair starts to reduce their litter size as they get past a year of age. But, I have gotten into a situation once where I have more rats than can fit into my high rise. What I did was "retire" my breeding pair. Just separate them and let them live out the rest of their lives in a hamster house. Most people just move the breeding pair into the "snake food" pool. I didn't do that because my breeding pairs were chosen as my pets complete with names and such and I felt they have provided me with such joy that they get a place in my "pet burial ground" in my backyard...
Okay, here's a picture of my high rise while I was building it. Okay, you might ask - there's not much light in those tubs! Well... ASFs live in burrows and are nocturnal. They don't want too much light.
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Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
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anatess
Sub Adult
USA
669 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2012 : 19:07:27
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| Oh! It just came to me, Bats. You meant to freeze a pre-killed rat that the snake refused to eat. Gotcha. Yeah, I've never prekilled for a royal. I used to prekill for my hognose but I quit doing that because I just didn't feel good about having to do it especially after I couldn't find the keyboard cleaners without the added bitterant anymore. My hognose now eats frogs... |
Snake owner since Oct 2008, so yeah, I'm no expert.
0.1.0 pastel royal
1.0.0 spider royal
0.1.0 albino royal
1.0.0 bumblebee royal
1.0.0 yellowbelly royal
0.0.1 wild-type royal
1.0.0 normal western hognose |
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ppl_clectr
Yearling
Canada
226 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2012 : 13:14:48
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| Here in Canada there is no law, and not much objection to feeding live. I guess they would be eating live in the wild, right? All 3 of the different breeders I have gotten my Royals from feed live rat pups to start, and then switch the babies to frozen. I have one boy who was fed live mice from the start, and refuses to eat the other (pet store). I don't have a problem with feeding live mice, the kill is fast and probably more humane than how our food is dispatched. When one of the others, who normally eats frozen rats, is off feed for more than 3 consecutive feeds, I give them a live mouse. It stimulates their feed response, and they go back to frozen rats the next feed. That was advice I got from the breeder of my Butter girl. But that is just me, I don't have a problem feeding live mice. |
SherriR |
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how are mice/rats killed?
